And I'm not talking about Berwick on Tweed or Corby.

'Marooned' in Cumbria

My already high regard for Victorian railway engineers has went stratospheric now.

If anyone should come across any further web sites which have any details on this, I'd appreciate the link being added here.

I've tracked down a fair number of links relating to the station concerned, but none mention the boundary in any detail, although they do sometimes mention it. I'm still trying to work out from the various texts if they appreciate the detail given in the BBC item, or if they are simply referring to the normal border crossings that resulted from the run of the railway.

I'd like to get enough detail together to be sure it was correct, and add a page about this at some point.

Took a bit of map fiddling to identify the spot concerned on the river, and the actual bend referred to in the story, but I have located it.

Using OS tools, I find the section between the river and the Scottish/English border amounts to only about one acre, rather than the two referred to in the story, but then again, it's not possible to determine where the edge of the landowner's extent is precisely located, so there's a certain amount of guesswork involved, and for this purpose, I assume the figure is correct, and not a warning that this is the wrong spot, as perhaps a result of 20 or 30 acres might have signalled.

There was one odd thing that occurred to me, and on reflection, makes me wonder why this particular situation arose.

I'm sure I have read of numerous land disputes over the years, which have arisen because the border is defined by natural features, such as the run of a river. This has led the parties concerned to adopt all sorts of methods to alter the course of river in their own favour, so extending the dispute.

This leads me to wonder how the definition of this particular border differs, since it is clearly old. If it had been defined in terms of the run of the river, then regardless of the changes made to accommodate the railway, the land affected would hace stayed in Scottish or English hands, as defined by wherever the river ran its course.

The land would therefore not have been marooned as described in this story, as the border would simply have moved with the river, however, according to this story, it seems as if the Scottish/English border is somehow defined in a way that is independent of this identifiable feature of the river, and therefore stays in place on the ground, regardless of where the river runs.

Most odd.

Perhaps someone has access to the words which define the position of the Scottish/English border.

I've been using OS maps so far, but had a look at the modern aerial views, and Google has the best of the bunch:

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=55.059784,-2.937405&spn=0.002587,0.007499&t=h&z=18

Here you can clearly see where they have marked the Scotland/England border, and see the "two acres" that fall between the actual course of the river, and the defined line of the border.

The view also shows how the land was altered so that the railway could run straight, and not have to negotiate the land around the river.

Not clear from the aerial view alone is the fact that the cliffs overlooking the river are about 3o metres high. No doubt this was at least part of the reason for shuffling the river around a bit, so the track could be laid on the easiest path, with the least effort.

Notably, the river will be (and is if the report is anything to go by) making its own way back to its original course, so the border and the river will meet at some point in the future.

River engineers know that despite their best efforts, nature and the river will re-establish the original course unless the new one is constantly maintained, and put back into place as erosion tends to "correct" their modifications.

I've stuck the location in the Secret Scotland - Map Sandbox temporarily, just to get quick access to the other maps - the old-maps look quite good too, and even show the railway in place - and there's a nice geograph pic to be had of sandstone blocks used to reinforce the reclaimed land. And it can be seen to be falling apart as the river asserts its authority on its desired course.

Reinforced River bank:: OS grid NY4074 :: Geograph British Isles - photograph every grid square!

If we look at the model of the rubberised border at Berwick-upon-Tweed, then you have probably got a valid point about the hush-hush nature of the authorisation of this re-alignment. If they had raised this issue, then the debate about the rights, wrongs, and lord knows what else would still be being debated and argued, and the railway would never have been built.

Also notable, just out of interest, is Bing's little slip up on this one, as they have marked the border not as the border, but as the Liiddel River, which clearly does not follow the border or route shown in the graphic - oops ;)

There's no real relevance for Berwick - it was just a reflection on how it moves back and forth across the Scottish/English border every few years, depending on who is shouting the loudest with a claim.

Reflect on the silence about the Liddel Motte "adjustment".

Also, I have this quote regarding the companies concerned:

In fact, the Anglo-Scotttish Border makes a short zigzag on to the Waverley Route south of Riddings junction, at Liddel Mote. This was not publicized by the NBR, LNER or BR, and in mentioned here only for accuracy's sake.

The full quote and source are on the new page (I'm collecting snippets just now), but I've stuck this bit here, as the page will not be seen for a while.

There is, I believe, also a section of the border that zigzags because neither side wanted a notorious band of reivers on their side.

Berwick also caused problems - Berwick was technically at war with Russia for over 100 years, from 1853 to 1966. The problem was that Victoria declared war on Russia in the name of "England, Scotland and Beriwck upon Tweed" but the ceasefire didn't mention Berwick. A peace treaty was finally signed between a Soviet official and the mayor of Berwick in 1966 - the mayor apparently said "Please tell the Russian people that they can sleep peacefully in their beds."

The reivers may have been notorious, and the "Debatable Lands" a place of lawlwssness, but I think any suggestions that the kings of the time would have argued over the position of the border to suit them is something to be taken with a large pinch of salt. Apart from anything else, the location of the border would have been determined by identifiable land features, as noted above with the run of the Liddel River. In those early days, the state of mapping meant these features would have been even more important in establishing the position of the of the border in such a way that it was identified by relatively immovable features that could be easily recognised.

The zigzagging is down to the course of the rivers Esk and Liddel, the latter already being the cause of the railroad story.



The reivers did survive for over 300 years, and became wealthy "landowners" from the profits of their raids, but eventually patience was lost with them, and the king first locked up the local lairds for not dealing with them, then hung 32 of the reivers leaders, including the most powerful and notorious of them, and Armstrong, and in the end, when the two thrones were united in 1603, King James VI of Scotland became James I of England, and embarked on the ''Pacification of the Borders'', purging the Border Reivers and destroying their fortified tower houses, rounding up the families, and sending them to Ireland and elsewhere.

The BBC's Coast programme included a feature on the Berwick/Russia war, which is a bit of a gem :)

I'd like to be able to say which series, but I think they made a major foui-up with this successful series, by not giving each series a clearly differentiated title.

They repeat it so often, and not at regular times, that I missed most of the last series because I did not realise it was in fact a new series, and thought it to be another repeat (and I don't like the way they stick in little 10-minute excerpts all over the place, which I think lessens the value of the programme as the originals were a complet package on an area or theme).