Excitement at Ardeer tonight, as the plant catches fire and everyone says "You're sure the word FORMER applies to its life as an explosives factory"!?



A major operation has been launched after chemicals exploded at an industrial site in Ayrshire.
Strathclyde Fire and Rescue said more than 10 appliances are at the former ICI factory in Stevenston, near Irvine.
Officers say they are dealing with a chemical explosion involving flammable nitro-cellulose.
There are no reports of injuries. Eyewitnesses told the BBC that flames reached 100ft into the air and could be seen from 10 miles away.
The fire service said the blaze at the plant - which once made explosives - has been brought under control and no nearby residents have had to be evacuated.

Rest of the story...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6985588.stm

Three boys have been reported to the Children's Panel after an explosion and major fire at a chemical plant in Ayrshire, police have said...

Strathclyde Police said three boys, two aged 14 and one aged 10, were the subject of a report to the Children's Panel in connection with the incident. A full report will be sent to the procurator fiscal...

At its height there were 20 fire appliances and 75 firefighters tackling the blaze, along with support crews and specialist teams...

Strathclyde Police said about 1,500 to 1,700 tons of the nitrocellulose had been involved in the incident...

The whole story:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6985785.stm

10, 14 and 14 years old?

Kind of makes you wonder why they bothered reporting them. At those ages, won't it be a case of patting the little darlings on the head and getting them away from the nasty police station and policemen before their innocent young minds are traumatised by the overbearing figure of authority?

And a little bit of compensation for any unecessary distress they were caused wouldn't go amiss either.

Seriously thought, it will be interesting to see if there is any follow up to this, as there's no mention of why, or what circumstances led to the three boys being reported.

Some slight thread necromancy here, but I've heard someone say that there are doubts that Inabata (the owners) will bother to keep the site open due to the costs involved.

Here's a thought, while nitrocellulose is not dynamite like what Nobel used to produce, would there really have been any harm in storing some of this stuff in the old blast huts that are still around.  I know they won't be A1 condition, but surely something is better than just letting it lie in the open.

Nitrocellulose is a fire hazard rather than an explosive risk. Using the blast defended areas wouldn't offer any practical safety advantages. The dispersal might help in the event of a fire, but also increases its likelihood by making it easier for vandals to sneak in, with a larger active area to maintain secure, costing more - and provide access routes for the fire service. It's all a big balancing act if you get landed with the job ::)

I came across this report on the incident...

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1442302007

While the article itself adds little to what was announced on the BBC's news coverage at the time, I draw your attention to the Comments added by what may be politely described as 'Dribbling Idiots' - some have even been moderated and deleted by the SoS.

What I do find amusing/pathetic/offensive though, are those who appear to have no scruples, happy to accept ICI's shilling, but jump up and down about "an accident/disaster waiting to happen" that shouldn't be so near a town.

Indded, choice gems like this

"Not one govt or political person I am sure thought of this when they built that place and did not build a hospital facility closer than Kilmarnock to deal with trauma that eventually would occur there", maybe because you numpties, the government didn't build the place, it was initially a private company.  And the plonkers that talk about residential areas remind me of those who buy houses next to airports then complain about the noise.  The ICI plant has been there for years, and was a lot larger.  The 'risk' from explosives was dealt with by the blast huts and bunkers.

They also forget that a LOT of industries were a hell of a lot more dangerous.  How many injuries were suffered in coal mining, or shipbuilding or steelworking, not to mention long term illnesses like asbestos poisoning or black lung.  Of course, they'll have been the same people that moaned when ICI massively scaled back their operations years back.

You may be interested in the rather circular relation between Nobel, ICI and Orica's hstory that has been added to the Muirside Depot page:

http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/ExplosivesDepotMuirside

A classic example of what goes around comes around!  ICI was never the same after the old MD retired, can't remember his name but he did busines progs on TV a few years ago.  He of course started from the grass roots and probably understood more of how a company ticks than somebody with a degree.  Sad that it now belongs to the Ozzies.  The paint bit has been sold to the Dutch owners of Crown paints too.

I don't know how many of you saw the Scottish news where they mentioned the redevelopment of the Ardeer Peninsula.  There was the usual mournful film about how the area used to thrive due to ICI and people had been leaving the town for years.

But wait!!!!!

There's going to be redevelopment, a load of new houses, maybe a power station (unsightly turbines of course) and a Golf Course (just what Ayrshire needs, yet ANOTHER golf course).

I'm sure if you asked the locals, especially in Stevenston, what they would prefer, new houses or the old ICI plant in it's former glory, the answer would be ICI.  I remember seeing how many cars came out that place, and that it had its own train station, technically I think it had two, one at the main site and one nearer the explosives bunkers..

Anyway here's the story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7597871.stm

Quoted Text

Housing plan for explosives site

A former explosives site in North Ayrshire could be transformed into a business park and housing estate if a £500m development proposal goes ahead.

NPL Estates said its 15-year plan for the Ardeer Peninsula would create 1,000 jobs, benefiting the coastal towns of Ardrossan, Saltcoats and Stevenston.

Plans for the 1,700 acre area also include a golf course and a marina.

The proposal, for Scotland's largest brownfield regeneration site, has yet to be submitted for planning consent.

NPL Estates commissioned architecture and planning practice Keppie Design to develop the proposal.

Their recent projects include the Ravenscraig development in North Lanarkshire.

Simon Towers, managing director of NPL Estates, said the development would turn around the fortunes of the local community

He said: "This exciting plan is the culmination of over five years design and consultation work and will deliver unprecedented regeneration in an area which has experienced a decline in socio-economic conditions following the downturn of heavy industry.

"This plan will reverse those conditions and will deliver real benefits to the local community."

The area was formerly owned by Alfred Nobel, founder of the Nobel Prize, and was the site of the world's largest explosive plant.

At its peak, during the 1950s and 1960s, about 15,000 people worked at the site.

'Few hurdles'

There are currently about 200 staff employed by companies in the area.

Jim Clements, a former local councillor in the area, said he hoped the regeneration plan would succeed where others had failed.

He said: "They have a few hurdles to get over yet, but hopefully in the next 15-year period it will come to fruition.

"But what it does mainly in my view is give people in my area hope that something is happening.

"That there is hope for the youngsters in the area, and that can only be good."

1000 jobs, that will probably be temporary, compared to the 10000 jobs that Ardeer once had.  Also, with this forthcoming slump in the housing market it doesn't seem to be the wisest decision.

Story captured on video as well.

It may have had a grass roof, but it was a shame to see the weeds growing around The Big Idea - it was doomed from the day it was conceived.

Whatever they do, all I can say at the moment is that I hope there's someone in a position of influence to force some sort of remnant or museum forced into the development to preserves some of the Nobel Works, and some samples of the artefacts that still survive on the ground.

I don't know how close you live to the site Apollo, but most of the factory in Stevenston proper is long gone, there's a bit on the peninsula that's still used, but the site that used to have the nylon plant and the two huge chimneys is practically levelled.  Does anyone know anything about the rumour that they once did tobacco or synthetic tobacco in there?

Anyway, the rows of bunkers are still intact, at least as far as I can tell, they're visible from the Ayr-Glasgow railway line.  I imagine the site would need some major cleanup done.  Frankly, I really don't think we need another golf course but that's maybe just me.

The artificial tobacco story rings a bell.  The product was known as NSM short for New Smoking Material and made its debut in the early 70s as I recall.  Millions were spent on developing it.  It was a commercial failure.  Tasted pretty awful and lacked that certain something that is in tobacco and which all smokers crave.   It was indeed made in Ayrshire.

http://tobaccodocuments.org/bw/567070.html

Yes, the place is indeed something of a desert - The Big Idea was still open the last time I was able to get down there, and fight my way through the hordes of visitors trying to... oops - wrong place :B

I was actually down at the Maritime Museum, and slipped over for a look, but with nothing inspiring on view through the big glass front, I wasn't motivated to pass through the door, especially as I didn't have a token child handy to justify my presence.

All I was really thinking about was the sad fact given Nobel's past importance, the Dynamite invention, the Peace Prize, and the rest of the history, it's surely a lost opportunity to have even a small museum and commemoration somewhere on the site where it all started. There's also the danger that if the development reclaims the area and land with no sympathy for the past, then the remains of the production sheds and their protection will be swept away and flattened - with some genius popping up in 10-15 years with the startling revelation that "Maybe someone should have thought about preserving a small, original corner of the site". At the same time, they'll be making an application for a grant of a few million £ to "Create an accurate reproduction to show visitors what the site used to be like".

I agree about that, the explosives bunkers that are still around, if that is what they are, I can't really see being ideal land and I shudder to think what the cost would be in doing some major scale industrial cleanup on the peninsula.  I remember hearing one reason Nobel got the land was that basically no one else wanted it, basically because it wasn't exactly ideal land for housing.

Now of course, they'll build on a plot the size of a postage stamp nowadays.

Regarding the Maritime Museum, I remember asking one of the main head types in there if they were ever going to pursue any military history, even any small items and she basically said that as long as she was there 'the evil military wouldn't be featured'.  Personally I think that sort of attitude stinks, its part of our history, just because this person wants to seem like a peacenik hippy doesn't mean you can deny events like the war.

Quoted Text

Having scoured the country for a remote location to establish his explosive factory, Nobel finally acquired 100 acres (40 Ha) from the Earl of Eglinton, and established the British Dynamite Factory in 1871,

From an official history-type source yonks ago.

I've heard about the Maritime Museum curator before, and that attitude stinks to the extent that if I got it first hand, I'd be writing some letters and emails to get her out of the job. A museum's a museum, not a political statement, and in this case, since it is nationally funded (or at least was when I visited, cos I had a bought a National Museums season ticket for unlimited entry back in the days when there was an entrance charge), it has no place excluding any sort of exhibits based on the politics of the curator.

The place is almost built on the developments of the Clyde, which was one of the foremost warship builders of all time - British Fleet, Britannia Rule The Waves and all that - and there was a sizeable chunk of the display devoted to that in one corner as I recall.

Firing's too good... let's break out The Plank!

Personally I prefer keel hauling, but lets use the keel of either a US Supercarrier or one of those huge oil tankers. :)

I have added a small gallery of the peninsula and some of the explosives storage area on the Bogside side of the river.

Good stuff - should I link to my Flickr gallery as well?

I've just caught up on the older news articles about the fire as well - the SoS comments are funny, especially the expert who worked on the "Inter Continental Missile Bomb" :)

If you're going to make up acronyms, at least get the letters in the right order...

Definitely Ben.  It would be much appreciated.

A-ha! :)

Somebody got my point.

cough-cough flagpoles cough-cough

Apollo - why would the site need so many flagpoles?

Because you can only get one flag on one flagpole :)

The project was funded to the tune of at least £14 million by both public and private money, and the site was donated by ICI Nobel.

That's flags for:

ICI
Scotland
Britain
Europe
Nobel/Switzerland
Whoever gave the most money
Which company gave the most money
Irvine/Ayrshire
Something for the local council
Some more sponsors
Something for the harbour
The Big Idea's own flag
Stars & Stripes - just in case an American tourist gets upset if their isn't one
Germany - just like the towel on a deckchair

I'm sure this could go on forever ;D

We are at cross purposes JF.  I was referring to the poles/masts around Ardeer itself, not The Big Idea.  Have a look at the 7th and 8th pictures in the Ardeer Gallery.

Those are floodlight pylons, aren't they? There are also a bunch of CCTV cameras on poles around the security fence.

;D

Cross-purposes indeed...

But now I understand - and see the "lights" ;)

Floodlights!  That makes more sense, mind you, they are on very tall poles.

I have just blown the original pics up to 100% and the poles appear to have thin whip like extensions on top of them, apart from that they are largely bare.    Was I right in the first place?  I cannot imagine that they are for radio purposes in the middle of an explosives factory.

Definitely not lightning conductors. (Never say definitely! - See later updates below ;) )

Lightning conductors are sacrificial devices added to tall structures - which may attract a lighting strike as the highest item in a given area - and are designed to provide an easier path to ground for the strike than the structure, thereby preventing the discharge current from damaging the structure, but potentially vaporising the lightning conductor.

And, yes, if a second strike follows the first, and the conductor was completely vaporised by the first, then the structure is no longer protected, and will receive the full force of the second strike - and there is absolutely no truth in the old adage "Lighting never strikes twice in the same place", quite the opposite in fact, as the first strike leaves a conductive trail of ionisation behind.

Witness the recent case of the iPod which is reported to have saved the life of the wearer when the were struck by lightning - as noted here recently - and the death of another a few days later, who was not wearing anything that might have diverted the strike.

Unless the practical design manual for munitions sites decrees that it is actually better to install such conductors on a flat sight such as Ardeer, then they would represent a hazard.

With a relatively flat, treeless areas such as the Ardeer peninsula, there is little to attract a strike, other than the buildings.

Adding point structures like flagpoles, lighting masts, or similar which would rise into the sky would provide attractions for strikes which would not otherwise be likely to head for the flat ground.

Could have been added after the place went out of production.

Can't make a guess at what appears in you're blow-up though, too vague, and would need to see what was there to get a better idea.

I have never seen a lighting conductor that has vapourised though sure that it can happen. Masts and towers are quite frequently struck and the earthing usually survives.

I don't know about explosive storage but often the problem is building up of a static charge rather the classic bolt of lightning.  We often damage at work after heavy snow or rain and it was said the tower would have discharged a charged cloud to ground rather than being struck.  It was said the Eitshal fire started that way.

I have stood on the Ben Nevis path holding a hand-held radio with telescopic antenna sizzling from static if I lifted it above waist height (I had first heard the sizzling from a pole sticking out of my rucksack).

MB

Here is a clip from the raw image:-

I muist be more detailed in my generalisations ;D

"Potentially vaporising" - 20 to 30 kA can do a fair bit of damage, and vaporising a spot on the conductor, thereby breaking the continuity, and reducing its effectiveness.

It can still be a better bet second time round, and be preferred to the building. The forces generated by the various fields accompanying the strike can also rip the conductor off the building. Chances are a strike will still damage the conductor, hence their sacrificial definition.

Masts etc are a special case, since these are metal and conductive anyway, but their construction does not require that every joint be bonded, hence the conductor still provides a single, designed, route to/from ground for the lightning, but there is bound to be a secondary path through at least part of a metal mast or tower, so the load on the conductor can be eased.

There are a number of associated techniques that can be applied to sites such as Ardeer, for example charge transfer.

This involves placing a large number of conductors around the site to be protected - this has the effect of reducing the electric field above the site, this forms a space charge above the site, diverting the lightning away from it.

I've never made it up anything as high as Ben Nevis, but the story about the static could be a motivation :)

Did the hand-held still work after it had sizzled? Any scrappers we ever played with using HV just had their semiconductors blown if the did anything at all the created a discharge on or nearby, and they would fall silent almost immediately.

Just caught the clip.

Intriguing :-/

Also, none of the above suggestions apply, these are clearly not flagpoles ;D

Or lighting... or ?

There are plenty of other items sticking up into the sky, and as far as lighting is concerned, little to choose between them.

However...

There is another technology, I haven't seen it in real life, so don't know what it actually looks like on the ground, need to try and dig up a pic maybe:

Early streamer emitting (ESE) technology: ESE air terminals are designed to release streamers in the initial phases of their formation during a lightning strike. Just before the lightning reaching the ground, the ESE air terminals gather ground charge. Before the lightning strikes, the step ladders begin to branch down from the cloud. At this point, the ESE air terminals emit a series of streamers and reach the stepped leaders before the streamers from other structures do, thereby becoming the point of occurrence of the lightning.

I've just looked through the full ICI Ardeer gallery, and have to say it's an amazing collection.

ICI Nobel Ardeer - a set on Flickr

There's so much historic or collectable hardware just lying around there too, and it will all just be scrapped and destroyed come the day the site is flattened and cleared - and if I turned up with a van to fill and take some away, I'd end up being locked up.

Yet the vandals can run free and spray the place with paint and smash whatever takes their fancy.

There's no justice :(

Have you not probably answered this in the posting above:-
"This involves placing a large number of conductors around the site to be protected - this has the effect of reducing the electric field above the site, this forms a space charge above the site, diverting the lightning away from it."

I may have answered it above, but you've unfortunately picked the wrong solution desription :o

The poles you found may represent the ESE technology I described, but I don't have any details of the appearance of the these devices yet, so I don't make the claim. I'm still digesting my flagpole flavoured humble pie :)

However...

The "charge transfer" system described above requires the installation of conductors into or onto the ground. This can be done in a various ways. I'm not picking one as there are a number of options, but the key factor is that it/they go on or down into the ground to change its characteristic, and not up.

Thanks Ben that is a cracking Gallery

Cheers  :)

The lab area is absolutely amazing - I was just walking around gobsmacked at all the equipment left lying about. What's fascinating is that there are still some high-speed cameras left in situ, and they're cameras designed at Ardeer - the plans, marked Top Secret, are still in one of the offices. It's the kind of place that should be preserved, along with the nearby incorporating mill with hit's three edge runners, but it'll all be flattened if the development goes ahead.

Just a quick note.The masts are similar to the Smalmstown ones at the DM place in Gretna only there they are placed at either end of the brick storage sheds in that particular location.

I don't know, I remember being around when a lot of the ICI Plant was still active.  I find it kinda sad to see the place being so derelict now, especially when you think how much activity there was in the past.

Quoted from Apollo

Did the hand-held still work after it had sizzled? Any scrappers we ever played with using HV just had their semiconductors blown if the did anything at all the created a discharge on or nearby, and they would fall silent almost immediately.

Yes radio worked OK, it passed over after a few minutes.

Lightning / static is funny stuff.  We had one hilltop site that was regularly damaged.  There was a steel framed trolley inside, on one visit I gave it a pull and it would not move at first then came with a jerk.  I looked at the back and it had been spot welded to a metal wall heater.  The telephone was on the trolley and the "curly cord" from the handset was discoloured where it went over the metal edge of the trolley and the metal was slightly scorched.  A strike had come up the telephone wiring and discharged through the trolley to earth.  The telephone still worked after we put a new fuse in the line.

Yes - that's a feeling I get all the time with urbex, which I guess is why I'm so keen to document everything that's left. being a civilian site, at least Ardeer has stories, newspaper articles, pictures and paintings of the site - I'm also very interested in ROF Bishopton, and very, very little is documented about that place.

It's sad when you get to the state of somewhere like Georgetown, the WWI filling factory. 10,000 people worked there, it was a little self-enclosed community, but now all that's left to remember all those people is a few bits of brick in a forest (soon to be redeveloped) and two copies of the works magazine.

Intriguing.

It seems the early streamer emitting (ESE) technology I mentioned is considered to be "smoke and mirrors" by the lightning establishment, and is merely a sales pitch by some manufacturers in order to sell useless technology to gullible buyers.

Scientists Oppose Early Streamer Air Terminals - National Lightning Safety Institute

Here is a sample of the type that look something like the whips The Fox mentioned above:

E.S.E. Air Terminal

There are other designs without the whip extension, and they just have spiked tip on a rounded pole end.

It would explain why I can't find what I would consider to be any quotable theory, or anything other than advertising pictures of the "technology".

The diagram below shows how much extra cost a vendor could add to a client's purchase by selling them and ESE system, rather than a simple lighting conductor, which is little more than a bonded metal strap leading to ground.



For what it's worth - probably not a lot - I think I side with the scientists in opposition.

There is NO WAY to predict precisely what streamers will do just before a ground strike forms - it's essentially a random process.

If you have a tall structure, then it seems to make sense to add a conductor which will probably take the brunt of a strike that has decided the building is its preferred route.

If you have a fairly flat site, with no particular attraction for a lighting strike, it seems madness to deliberately erect ANY sort of attraction rising into the sky to attract it. There is simply no way to guarantee that the strike will choose the attractor for the last few metres of its connection path to the earth, the various factors that influence its path are simply too complex to claim to predict.

Yup, I could see the point of having one tower (electricity pylon sized) sited a good long way away from the area you want to protect - but it has to be far enough away that there's not going to be any side arcing from the tower, otherwise it could attract a lot more trouble than it prevents.

I don't actually know where these poles are in relation to the site as they do not seem to feature on Ben's pics.

They're inside the live part of the explosives factory - where I didn't go :) Closest I got was the power plant (the two chimneys on the right of the pic) and they seem quite far inside the perimeter fence. All that's visible form outside the fence is the occasional CCTV camera.

Fox is right, the poles in the Ardeer photo are for static and lightning protection and are common around NG plants and assembly buildings where Electric Detonators are being inserted after removal from the transit packaging.
The poles protecting Factory 1 NG plant and pipelines at Bishopton are clearly seen on Google Earth.
I would guess that the Ardeer building would be an electric detonator assembly building as once packed the dets would be safe......er.

:)

I'd like to meet the salesman that sold an explosives manufacturer poles with pointy tops to as static protection - and offer him a job! It's not even the right technology.

(The Lightning Safety Institute has already dismissed these poles for lightning protection in their current recommendation - earlier referenced above)

Either he's a genius, or he sold them to the factory cat (or the factory's safety officer was better qualified for that job than the cat.)

Turning way back to the original theme of redevelopment of the site, I came across the web site of the partnership originally working on the redevelopment of the Ardeer peninsula, the Ardeer Partnership

The also produced a newsletter (and no other apparently, at least not listed on their site)

NPL Newsletter - Spring 2008 Ardeer Peninsula Masterplan Update

Dragging this subject up again, I found a bunch of old glass slides at the Ardeer testing station, and this was one of the slides:



These look much like the same kind of poles - with thin presumably metal rods at the top. I'm not sure of the date of this...

Drag away with that sort of material :)

That's an amazing find, and the other pics are no less fascinating.

I suppose it's just my (our? ) nature with regard to these things, but I just can't understand how this sort of of archival material is just abandoned for loss and destruction.

The pic styles largely look like 1950s - and I'm merely painting with a wide brush to suggest they're not from the wartime period, but later.

Given the age, it would be interesting to learn if the poles were installed on the basis of research and development (as we know now, these are controversial, but there are also systems based on statistical analysis of strikes, and with properly designed "cones of protection" defined by the pole heights and numbers), or if they were just stuck up into the sky on the basis that they looked like a good idea, and would have - hopefully - diverted any lighting away from striking the enclosed building, even though the fact that they are poking into the sky on an otherwise flat spot just miiiiiiight have done more to attract that lighting in the first place ;)

I suppose this is the problem - if you bung up these poles, you can say "look at all the lighting strikes they're directing away from the buildings" - its harder to work out if they're attracting strikes that wouldn't be happening otherwise...

One of the slides that was in the same box has a '60s-looking van in the background - I'm not an expert on vans, though ;) This picture definitely isn't very old - the trailer with standard trailer hitch gives that away. I'm not sure why they're on glass plates not film - perhaps just playing with their glass plate cameras.

So, somebody else noticed the trailer hitch too :)

The detail in the slide is superb, and although the signs can't be read, the style is of the period too.

The glass slides are indeed probably down to the equipment on site, and they just used what they had - and was therefore least expensive.

They seem to have been something of a norm for business, and may be a sign of postwar austerity. While we think of film as cheap and plentiful (or it was before digital came along), it was a material that would have consumed resources as it was still not quite the mass-produced material of our recent past.

I managed to rescue a few from Weir's, probably from the 1950s, maybe earlier - I haven't had a change to "print" or view them properly. Some are negs, some are positves. Unfortunately most were lost as they turned up in the bottom of a bag. The bottom of a bag, and thin glass slides don't really belong together, and only a dozen or so survived.

Maybe they were the forerunner to the dreaded 35-mm slide presentation, and company reps could turn up at clients doors, with a suitcase full of such glass slides, confident in the knowledge that there would be a sutable projector, and they could bore their victims out of their skulls while making their pitch :)

It looks like a Bedford CA Van to me.

Sorry to drag this up again, but as I was in the area I thought I'd get a picture of one of these things. The top actually has a series of spikes:



Apart from that, it's basically a telegraph pole with a lightning conductor (copper, apparently) nailed to it...

Well caught.

From what I read about these earlier, this would appear to be older thinking on the idea of the lighting rod (by whatever name).

Although I didn't find anything that came to a conclusion, and as noted earlier there seems to be some controversy over the idea, it seems that modern thinking and observation claims that contrary to intuitive thinking, a spherical or domed tip to the rod is supposed to be better than the multiple spike version shown in the photograph.

There was little to justify the claims, but the suggestion may have been that the spikes' performance was poorer because their effectiveness is directional in nature, and depends on the direction of the threat and which spike is pointing that way. By way of contrast, a spherical tip (and this bring radius questions to mind) on the rod produced an identical appearance to threats from any direction, and therefore provides better overall protection as it does not suffer from any relatively "blind" spots.

Keep on dragging :)

By the way I have identified one of the vehicular acces routes to the bomb store area on the south side of the river.  I didn't get much further than the gate because the site was badly flooded and the area comprises a lot of deep pits, some of them old coal pits.   Another approach will be needed.   There is a possiblity of an old railway siding too.  

Is this on the Bogside side?

Yes!   According to the magic mapping it is called Stevenson Site.

I imagine that the finished product was transported across one or other of the bridges and stored there awaiting transport elsewhere for filling/final use.   This would have given some safety margin in the event of an accident or a bombing attack.

Isn't automation wonderful.  I have just slotted in 5 additional pics to the gallery and they have all appeared in the carousel too.

Should this thread not be renamed ICI Ardeer and moved to the Discussion section?

I have added another 71 pics to the Ardeer Gallery.  

Today was a bit of a surpise as I had assumed that the Bogside side of the site was for finished product storage but the pics of the big red brisck building show it was a mill.  Judging by the large quantity of coke of the solid fuel variety I assume it was the updated version of a charcoal mill. To me this suggests that this area was used to manufacture gunpowder but I could be wrong.

The railway siding has been confirmed and the connection to the main line is still there although it is somewhat shortened.

To make any sense of the pics for people who haven't visited the site I think it might be necessary to place quite a few pegs in the map on the Main Site page.

Ben have you covered this part of the site?

I am amazed that anyone can wander in and about all this stuff.

Things have rambled a bit, and there may be a case for a more dedicated page or thread. It hasn't been done because of that and a degree of mulling over of the thought.

Things have maybe carried on for too long to change though, but any suggestions or hints can be thrown in, but if it needs any significant re-working, then it's not going to be a  runner.

There is Ben's Google Earth map which can be referred to (link is on the page Secret Scotland - ICI Ardeer).

You'd have to add the markers yourself though, as only you know where the pics were taken on the site.

I am mulling over the pegs.  I tossed it in incase you had a better suggestion.  I haven't actually visited very much of the site.  But the rest, to the north appears to be the same stuff duplicated.

Mind you I have still not seen anything remotely like the bunker near Kilwinning as shown on geograph.

I'll try and do something intelligent with the pics tomorrow when I am less tired.

Hello

Been a browser of this forum for a while. Decided to register as I use to work on the site and still occasionally visit still in my current employment.

Welcome  maddah, what can you tell us?

Hi maddah, and welcome.

I hope you weren't sneaking company materials out for use in your wheels while you were there :)

I was once a long-term lurker on Strathycruise, so the eybrow raised ever so slightly when I saw the name ;)

Yup, I've had a good look over on that side of the site - it's not as well preserved as the peninsula side, though.

The brick buildings with the lovely lattice walls are acetone recovery houses, used as part of the cordite manufacturing process. Gunpowder was never manufactured on that side as far as I know, it was all cordite propellant for WWII. The long bunkerlike buildings with the Chilworth mounds (the corrugated iron blast walls) are cordite press houses - each bay held a press where cordite paste was extruded through a die to produce rods which were chopped up and bundled together to make the propellant charge.

I don't have a detailed map of the site, best I have is a rough plan of the factory areas in an RCAHMS book. Something to work on :)

The smaller ones i.e. with the 3 escape doorways do not seem to have been used for production as they are one big room often with yellow rectangular areas marked out on the floor.  Looks like batch storage to me.  

The longer buildings  do seem to be for production.  I did note that the surviving wooden door were covered with zinc sheeting on the inside and that they had spyholes in them.

There was a slight solventy smell in the brick building I visited.  I assume that coke must have played some part in the acetone recovery process.  

This page has some info about the acetone recovery houses at Dalbeattie:

http://www.dalbeattie.com/ministryofsupplyfactorydalbeattie/acer.html

I'm not sure exactly how the process worked, but I guess the coke would have been an absorbant...

According to the Dalbeattie description, the acetone recovery was by distillation which it refers to as a gentle heating process by radiators mounted on the walls, and refers to the piping involved in carrying the vapour containing the acetone to be recovered, plus nitroglycerine as a by-product - an unwanted explosive by-product, less volatile than acetone, but probably vaporised due to relatively poor temperature control.

It notes the nitroglycerine condensed around joints in the pipework, and that a worker manually drained it off periodically.

If coke of the solid fuel has been found lying around, then it would more likely have been for boilers/heaters to heat the water circulating in the radiators of the acetone recovery house.

The description lead to two suggested process and a pic of a still, which would have wanted a little heat as well.

Unfortunately, our fine Scottish education system denied me any chemistry education whatsoever - no teachers in stock during the years they were needed, it's the one thing I grudge the system for - so I can't have a stab at the usefulness of carbon/coke in the recovery process, but it doesn't look too likely as the process refers to the use of solutions to process the distillate chemically.

The zinc sheeting might have been to stop the doors splintering in the event of an explosion, and/or help keep the lower production area gas/vapour-tight. Presumably the acetone would saturate and penetrate the wood, making into an explosion or fire waiting to happen if a light or similar came near to the door, with potentially disastrous consequences.

I think the fact that The Fox could still detect the remaining odour from the process after all the years that have passed with the house lying open speaks volumes for the level of vapour saturation that must have existed within when they were in operation.

I  have added some pegs to the map but am having trouble with Picassa which is refusing to save captions.

I am sure, having read the Dalbeattie pages, that the buildings either side of the Acetone Recovery building are for drying and not extrusion as the detail of the zinc lined doors and the pics of vent pipes seem the same.  

I didn't explore much of it as you can see but the adjoining areas seem to be carbon copies of the area explored and the site has many internal fences with locked gate running across it.   I expect to get back at some future date even if I have to wade through knee deep water to get onto the site ( a section of the road appears to have subsided).  I did get out with dry feet via the railway siding but had great difficulty finding a path from there to the bridge under the railway.

On the aerial to the south of the explored area there appears to be a line of 4 or 5 buildings in the woods.  These appear to be extant but buried with earth and greatly over grown.    It would be nice to know what they were and why they have been buried.

The coke remains a mystery.  I don't go with the theory of it being boiler fuel - no sign of a boiler and acteone is just a teenzy bit explosive.  The stills would have been heated with steam from the power building on the other side of the river - we would not, I think, be talking about very high temperatures.   There are cut off steel stanchioons that could have supported stills or other machinery but the large number of concrete bases is puzzling as many seem to have been associated with drive shafts apparently powered by something in the small annexe to the NW side of the building.

The markers begin to help make sense of the layout of the site.

Can I ask that when they are being gathered, they are placed on the corners of the items they belong to?

The current code doesn't allow the option of hiding the markers, an it's a shame to lose sight of part of the very subject they are drawing attention to, if they are on top of it and obscuring some of the detail :(

(I'll mive them later, as I may be fiddling with "Australia").

The Australian marker may have to go as well - unfortunately, although the coding is smart enough to pick a zoom level for the view such that all the markers are shown, this doesn't count as an advantage when there is a local cluster, such as at Ardeer, and one on the opposite side of the planet. Although the zoom can be over-ridden, the calculated centre can't be, and still centres on the average. The only way to eliminate the Australian effect is to remove the marker from the set.

There is an as yet unused option to have more than one map embedded in a page, but I think it failed to work fully when I tested it once, and may either be incomplete, or not properly incorporated in the otherwise stable code version in use. There are later versions with more toys, but I don't like to chance them if we don't need them and their additional complexity.

(There's also a new version of the Google Map code just released, which will probably mean revision in future, as they will eventually drop the current version in favour for the new one, but it is only out of the box, and although faster than the present one, lacks many of its function, so is not yet a replacement/upgrade option).

I agree on the heating, but its odd having the coke there. The temperatures involved are indeed low, and using the word boiler conjures up images of steam boilers, but the description gave the clue as it mentioned radiators on the wall, so it would be little more than a glorified central heating system, but on an industrial scale. If - and I emphasis that if - there was such a thing, it might have been to let acetone recovery work in isolation, and there would have been little hazard, since all that would be sent into the house would have been the warm water for the radiator - but then again, I'm only having a little ramble around the coke ;)

The other clever thing is that the acetone recovery plant is in the centre of a quite large space between two drying sheds and these are constructed with the sloping earth covers towards the recovery unit.  In the event of a nasty the force of the explosion would not damage the drying sheds and would be diverted upwards avoiding a chain reaction round the site.

As you will have seen in the pics there is a lot of it inside the shed and even more dumped outside it.

Sorry about the pegs I must remember to put them at the top of the artefacts in future.

A second map would be good if it could be achieved - it would allow pictures to be mapped without interfering with anything else.

Scrub the two+ map idea, after a lot of frantic typing the reward was only confirmation that no-one has ever got round to adding any of the required code.

I've killed the Australian factory point for the moment, so the view centres on Ardeer, as this is the core subject.

(I always intend to look at the later version of this code, but since I had a minuscule hand in writing this mod, my own version is possibly compromised with customisations and tests, and I've never felt brave enough to try updating, in case something I still have written in is important, and I kill the maps by changing that section. Have to do it one day though ::) )

Quoted from The Fox

Welcome  maddah, what can you tell us?

Thanks for the welcome.

The peninsula is mainly now owned by npl developments, but there is still very much and active area  ( Chemring/Quinetiq). I personally worked in the nitrocellulose indusrty that was there. Left about 2 year ago due to confirmed rumours that the work was off out to Thailand. The NC side of the plant is now mothballed or taken over by the companies on site. I was onsite (due to my new employment, not willing to disclose exacty what that is openly here but will say I get to visit some very interesting places) and can say there has been a considerable upgrade in the security around the active site. This is probably due to a combination of the fire/arson a few years ago and fact industry left is explosives.

As for areas there is loads out there, have to remember site has been active since the 1870's. Some ground work was attempted but failed as no true soil samples could be found in some areas due to hitting rubble!

Specific things from previous posts. Posts are indeed lightning conductors, they are located on the corners of the bunkers. These bunkers to my knowledge are used for storage and test firings. They have solid walls and a canvas roof, designed as such so if it does go bang the force of the explosion goes out by the route of least resistance( the roof) and so reduce  the amount of flying debris.

The structures on other side of river visible from the rail line were old magazines.

Site of nylon plant is roughly now where BPI industries are located, also to the north side outside the active area is the old dynamite plant. Personally never ventured there (yet).

Large structures visible are the powerstation chimneys, one active  other mothballed, and the "maggies" magnesium nitrate stacks for acid reclamation ( quite a view from up top of these).

Dunno if anything I have said is useful but if there is questions I can help with then feel free to ask

The whole powerstation is now mothballed - or really derelict :)

There is two. The red brick one up beside the "maggies" is mothballed and probably suffering a level of dereliction through negligence. The other, grey building beside medical block, is fully active

Aha, I didn't realise there was another...

I don't know if it's relevant, but I have the Stenlake Publishing book "Ayrshire's Last Days of Steam", and the ICI siding that comes off the Irvine-Kilwinning railway was known as Snodgrass Junction, apparently named after a long gone local farm.  There are also rumours of a second platform station at the end of this siding.

Does anyone here know if any part of the Nobel/ICI complex ever came under the name of Bowhouse?

If you select the People's Map link on our Secret Scotland - ICI Ardeer page, and use the Layers option found near its top right corner to switch to the Out of copyright layer, you will be able to find the Snodgrass spur leading to a coal-pit, which is presumably how it came into being - it's just to the east and a bit south of our yellow marker which shows on that map.

Had a look around for any Bowhouse hints nearby, but I couldn't spot anything obvious.

Only bowhouse local I can think of is the old army camp that was located where HMP Kilmarnock now is.

Doubt thats relevant.

Quoted from Apollo

If you select the People's Map link on our Secret Scotland - ICI Ardeer page, and use the Layers option found near its top right corner to switch to the Out of copyright layer, you will be able to find the Snodgrass spur leading to a coal-pit, which is presumably how it came into being - it's just to the east and a bit south of our yellow marker which shows on that map.

Had a look around for any Bowhouse hints nearby, but I couldn't spot anything obvious.

The one that is still existing to a certain extent, and there are photographs of on the main page is the Snodgrass Junction.  The pic I have on that Ayrshires Last Days of Steam book shows a small steam loco with a train of explosives (If I remember right) from that section.  There were probably a few other small lines in this area as well.  With all the collieries and iron works, Ayrshire I think was festooned with small scale sidings.

I have to say that I was a bit surprised at the short length of the Snodgrass siding - it must be about 100yds only.   The buffers look as if they have been there for a considerable time and all the sleeper castings I saw said LMS.    There is also the missing 5 feet of rail near to the main line.  There was no sensation of walking on old sleepers as I walked up the track but on giving it further thought a coal fired steam engine would not be something you would want in the grounds of an explosive factory.  I assume the internal narrow gauge diesel powered rolling stock carried the product to the siding for transfer to the main line train.

I have a feeling the siding was cut back a bit, and its possible the old buffer stops were just moved wholesale.

Regarding the loco, if it was possible to scan the picture I would, but I don't think its possible.  I could see if I could do a capture of it.

It is possible that the steam loco is one of the 'fireless steam' locos that were also used in oil refineries though.

Wow! (As "they" say).

I never cease to be amazed at the versatility of water/steam and the many way it can be used, especially the strange effects that changes in pressure and temperature have on it, and that it can carry on to become superheated steam, with even more  interesting properties.

Although i never had need to use it, we had to study the stuff for weeks, and the more you learn about, the more like "magic" the stuff becomes.

I've never even heard or come across the "fireless" loco before. I'm not a rail or steam enthusiast of any sort, but I am surprised I've never seen this referred to anywhere else.

Until I ran off and read the theory behind them, I couldn't initially see how they would manage to hold enough energy to do useful work before "running out of steam" (sorry ;D ), their steam drums may have been big, but without the energy input of a firebox, if they were just using compressed gas they wouldn't run for long, but the principle is ingenious, and depend on the unique properties of water when subject to those temperatures and pressures I mentioned above. Those days of study weren't wasted after all, as the principle is obvious when pointed out.

Could almost make me an enthusiast :B

Thanks :)

I notice if you look at a Wiki article on it, they have a picture of a preserved one from the old South of Scotland Electricity Board, built by Andrew Barclays of Kilmarnock

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireless_locomotive

Also from the Ayrshire Railway Preservation Group website as an interesting aside

"4. Shell Refining Co No 8 : 0-4-0 Fireless, AB 1952/1928. Last worked at Shell Refinery, Ardrossan, where it was the last commercially working steam locomotive in Scotland. Under restoration at Dunaskin."

So there basically big tanks of compressed gas on wheels?

Dumbing it right down.

Good point JF - I had forgotten about live steam locos.

Quoted from maddah

So there basically big tanks of compressed gas on wheels?

Dumbing it right down.

Er...

I'm afraid not, not even if dumbing it right down to blonde level.

While the locomotive does carry a pressure vessel that delivers steam to the pistons, it's not in the form of a compressed gas - as noted earlier, if that's all that was done, then moving tons of locomotive and tons of load would only work for a few metres before the tanks was empty and things ground to a halt and the tank needed to be recharged.

As I observed above, the properties of water/vapour/steam steam really are more like magic than science - some engineers spend their lives specialising on nothing else.

Fireless locos basically depend on a phenomenon known as "flash steam".

Without delving into the science, the steam vessel contains a mixture of water, water vapour, and steam. These are at high temperature and pressure.

As the steam is used by the pistons to drive the loco, the pressure in the vessel falls. This causes the boiling point of the water within to fall, thereby causing it to boil and produce more steam to replace what has been used. This process continues until the temperature of the water/vapour/steam system falls below that required to sustain itself.

Why does it work with the water/vapour/steam mix and not just compressed gas?

Because water at boiling point expands in volume by about 1,700 times when it changes into steam, so that gives you and idea of how much bigger a compressed gas loco would have to be in order to do the same job as a fireless loco.

The energy is contained in the elevated temperature of the water/vapour/steam mixture, and is given up as the combination changes state between these three phases. As the pressure falls and the steam changes to a vapour (water/steam mix) it releases energy that raises the temperature of the water, producing more steam - flash steam - until all the stored energy has been released.

I would imagine that the Fireless steam locos are short range.  It did use to be BR policy anyway that on BR lines only BR locos crewed by BR drivers would be used.  However, the industrial locos owned by the NCB, ICI, BP etc would probably be fine for their internal network and to at least get the cargo to a nearby BR siding.

The only reason I know about that BR provision was reading about the Foster Yeoman and ARC operations in Cornwall where they were basically jerked around by BR regarding train operations and the availability of locos.  Both companies bought mainline standard GM built locos (what is now know as Class 59's) which solved the availability problem, but on the mainline BR crews were still needed.

I've been researching fireless locos in the hope of coming up with some indication of operating range/time, but as this is so dependent on variables such as engine/accumulator size, type of work being done, weight of load involved, operating speed required required, not to mention how new/old the engine being considered is.

The best that can be said is that "several hours" of operation could be achieved, but heat loss and heavy work would reduce the duration. The Hp-hr (horespower-hour, similar to a Kwhr or unit of electricity) figure is the usual indicator, so you can work out the potential operating time and range from the following description, which gives real numbers:

The traditional fireless steam locomotive carried a supply of saturated water under high pressure in an accumulator. Thermal energy was stored solely in the heat capacity of the saturated water, which was usually pressurised to 250-psia at 401-degrees F (17.25-bar at 205-deg C) and had an enthalpy of 376.1-Btu/lb. To convert saturated water to saturated steam (with 1201-btu/lb) required an average of 840-Btu of heat per pound (1915-KJ/Kg) be extracted from the remaining saturated water (70% of which had to be devoted to thermal energy storage, 30% for traction). While in service, accumulator pressure and temperature rapidly declined from 250-psia at 401-deg F and 376.1-Btu/lb, to 180-psia at 373-deg F and 346.2-Btu/lb. An accumulator measuring 7-feet (2-m) inner diameter by 20-ft (6-m) inner length initially carried 33,000-lb of saturated water when filled to 80% capacity, with a total thermal energy capacity of 4876-Hp-hr. Of this, up to 1400-Hp-hr could be converted to traction (at 15% cylinder efficiency).

Dr. Gilli of Henschel of Germany designed fireless steam locomotives with accumulators that initially held saturated water at over 1,000-psia at 545-deg F (69-bar at 285-deg C) and 542.6-Btu/lb. This steam fed into a 250-psia running tank that supplied the cylinders. To convert saturated water at this pressure to saturated steam required that an average of 738-Btu/lb (1511-KJ/Kg) of heat be extracted from the remaining liquid in the accumulator. This meant that some 62% of the saturated water was devoted to thermal energy storage while a maximum of 38% could be allocated to traction. An accumulator measuring 6-ft diameter by 20-ft long initially held 22,500-lb of saturated water and 5,000-Hp-hr total thermal energy when filled to 80% capacity, would yield 1,540-Hp-hr available for conversion to traction (at 20% cylinder efficiency). A 30-ft long accumulator would make 2300-Hp-hr available for conversion to traction.

The fireless loco is actually far from dead, and modern PCM (phase change materials) are being researched and developed which can now exceed the performance of water (formerly the best material) as the storage medium:

A locomotive carrying 150,000-lbs of PCM with a heat of fusion of over 1,000-BTU/lb would have over 58,000-Hp-hr of available energy. If 18% of this was converted into traction (10,000-Hp hr), a locomotive could operate for up to 6-hours at 1,500-Hp or up to 9-hours at 1,000-Hp (40-mi/hr in excursion service). Higher engine efficiencies that increase power output and extend the operating range could be possible if superheating were done chemically. This approach would involve chemically reacting a metallic-oxide with a small amount of steam to form a metallic hydroxide, at high temperature.

In layout, a PCM fireless locomotive could resemble a garratt in that the PCM would be carried in the forward and rear sections, while the centre section carries the accumulator. Parallel-flow/couner-flow radiators would be mounted on each side of the forward and trailing sections, for a total of 4-such units. The locomotive could carry over 400,000-lbs of PCM (200,000-lbs in each section) and be capable of operating for up to 10-hours at over 2,500-Hp at the drawbar, perhaps covering distances of up to 500-miles in a day prior to needing a thermal recharge.

For short-distance intercity operation (branch lines, short lines, excursion lines), a non-condensing version of a PCM fireless steam locomotive may be desirable. Such a unit may use more than one high-pressure accumulator that would receive thermal energy from the onboard PCM storage system. Operating distances of up to 200-miles at speeds of 40-mi/hr may require up to 1,000-Hp, after which the PCM storage system and useable capacity of the accumulator would both be exhausted.

I don't know why I haven't noticed this before, but QinetiQ have an interest in Ardeer:

QinetiQ Ardeer
c/o Nobel Enterprises
Building K29
Stevenston
Ayrshire
KA20 3LN

You can find their location maps and links here QinetiQ Site Locations

Going back to the fireless trains.  I doubt that technology was used in the Bogside area of the site as the only standard gauge rails I have found have been up at Snoddgrass Junction.  The site area is littered with railway lines and leftover sleepers - all 2 foot gauge as far as I could tell without measuring them.   I know seemingly impossibly wide engines and carriages are often balanced on rails of this gauge the picture of building 1 or 2 shows the sandfree bituman (sparkless) unloading area is quite close to the tracks.   This must mean that the trucks were quite narrrow.

If the above technology was scaled down to this gauge would the downscaling not involve a factor that was cubed?

My suggestion is handstart diesel locos with absolutely no electrics at all.

This predates the railway period, but is an interesting snippet from the threetowners site:

Alfred Nobel himself, assisted by Mr. P. A. Liedbeck, who had supervised the building of the factory, made the first 1,500 lb batch of nitroglycerine on 13th January, 1873. From that date a discipline of safe working was established which continues today.

Problems of transport and distribution were formidable. The railway companies would not accept dynamite as freight so the practice of bulk transport by sea was soon established. Horse-drawn vans, which did not, because they must not, betray the nature of their commerce, carried smaller loads of dynamite over shorter distances; their drivers treated as the 'Ishmaels of the Queen's Highway'.

There are interesting images and descriptions of "nitroglycerine bogies" and a battery powered locomotive at the Dalbeattie cordite works.

Ministry of Supply Factory, Dalbeattie - World War II Cordite Works - Site Railways and Trolley Runways

Clearly, not all the movements were by locomotive power, and certain highly hazardous procesess were carried out by pushers, and through tunnels to keep the contents isolated.

I think quite a lot of the movements within the factory were hand-pushed - there's a picture which I'm sure I had somewhere of a stack of dynamite boxes on a trolley, with a couple of flat-capped blokes. I don't know if ponies were ever used as they were at Georgetown.

Quoted from Apollo

I don't know why I haven't noticed this before, but QinetiQ have an interest in Ardeer:

QinetiQ Ardeer
c/o Nobel Enterprises
Building K29
Stevenston
Ayrshire
KA20 3LN

You can find their location maps and links here QinetiQ Site Locations

They moved in when Bishopton shut down. Occupy some labs and a test area

Quoted from BenCooper

I think quite a lot of the movements within the factory were hand-pushed - there's a picture which I'm sure I had somewhere of a stack of dynamite boxes on a trolley, with a couple of flat-capped blokes. I don't know if ponies were ever used as they were at Georgetown.

I believe in certain areas carts were hand pushed but I was once told there was small diesel unit.

One fact I always found amusing was the transportation of nitroglycerine. The complex and highly technical means of transportation was carried in wooden buckets  

The Stenlake publishing book Old Stevenston has a picture of visiting Japanese dignitaries in the early years of the 20th Century, stovepipe hats and all sitting on rather crude internal railways.  I'll see if I can get a capture of it.

I'm assuming they were - in relative terms compared to fireless locos using steam - comparable to the compressed air cars that have become available overseas, but there were indeed locos that were powered by compressed gas in use at the same time as the fireless locos.

There seems to be even less useful data about these online, but I guess they would have been used for lighter duties, as the compressed gas is unable to store anything like the latent energy that water/vapour/steam can. They would have taken a while to pump up to working pressure using the equipment of the time, though I haven't found any figures. The problem is that compressing the gas also heats it, causing it to expand, so at really high pressures, you actually have to slow down, or you can pump like mad but achieve nothing, increasing the pressure and temperature, but not actually getting any more gas in the receiver.

The fireless steam locos appear to have been capable of recharging in about 15 minutes or so - once they are hot - by charging with water and passing superheated steam through it. Must have been fun playing with that using the less than perfect hardware of the time :o

That picture of Japanese dignitaries is originally from Nobel's High Explosives, from 1905 - I've got a copy on the way from Australia so I'll upload the picture when I have it :)

According to Dangerous Energy, all the movements in the black powder section were hand-pushed.

According to the map  linked to the Qinetiq website their base is near the harbour in Saltcoats and not at Ardeer - or did I read this incorrectly.

See the adress I posted above - the office is in Stevenston...

But they call them themselves QinetiQ Ardeer - c/o Nobel Enterprises.

If you followed the map link from their slowly dwindling QinetiQ Site Locations page, then you can flip it over to aerial view and see the actual building.

I though I had got it wrong too, as it is way over to the east, and does even look like Saltcoats as opposed to Stevenston, but there's no accounting for postal districts (while we still have any).

The peg is definitely shown as Saltcoats.  I wonder if they have misplaced it.   Perhaps JF can tell us.

THat definitely isn't Ardeer the peg is in, it isn't even Stevenston.  The Peg is located in the graveyard of an old Church which is now the site of the North Ayrshire museum.  It's more likely been an amateur effort.

The marker isn't in the graveyard on my map :-/

It lies in a car park and beside a large flat roofed building, in the junction of Kirkgate and Chapelwell Street, which I took to be some sort of industrial or commercial premises, hence consistent with the Nobel/QinetiQ link.

I also did a post code lookup which confirms that KA20 3LN is Stevenston, Ayrshire - remember from our recent post code thread that these represent the post code districts for use by sorting offices, and not what anyone may consider a particular area to be, or what council or parish boundary apples. The post code definitions are independent of these.

I don't think it's an a amateur effort, or something QinetiQ is likely to get wrong.

I seem to have exhausted the online maps and info, so feet on the ground look like the only other means of confirmation one way or another, if you don't believe QinetiQ :o

That map isn't right - building K29 is Nobel House in in Ardeer, right here:

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=55.626007&lon=-4.726303&z=17.6&r=0&src=msl

It's not exactly encouraging that they don't even know where thier own offices are :) (Though, to be fair, they've probably just plugged the postcode into Google)

Is that also McGowan House?

Qineticq occupy the far corner labs of K1 building. White building complex just south of gatehouse. I have physically been in thier premises and estimate there staff count at about a dozen.

Ah right, its not far from the graveyard that marker.  The large flat roofed building to the right of the marker is (was?) the main Post Office in Saltcoats.  I haven't been in Saltcoats town centre for some years so whether its still operating I don't know.

To the left of the marker is the old La Scala cinema, now a Wetherspoons.

Well, you know by now I just drive through Saltcoats :)

I'm kind of lost with the K1 building - and suspect if I knew where it was, I might know where the gatehouse to its north was too :B

A feature on or towards the nearby shore might help us strangers to the site pin it down a little closer.

incidentally, I've just noticed that the QinetiQ global site gives a different list of offices than the localised European list - which is longer (I thought I had been imagining the shorter list I hinted at above) - but both lead to the same Ardeer location map.

I also tried downloading and inspecting the SatNav files they offer on the European site, but none of these contain the Ardeer site, so there was nothing to compare, and see if someone had suffered "finger trouble".

I also tried firing Postcodes into mapping systems.  

I found KA20 3LN always came out in Satcoats but that KA20 3L centred on Stevenston and KA20 3L plus a selection of last letters always came up around Ardeer.  

It is all a bit strange.  I wonder if for some reason Quinetiq is becoming much more secretive about where they are and what they do?

This is about as close as you can get to an easy postcode finder on a map - it shows the main outcode, but you have to enter individual postcodes to see where they are, and it doesn't show the minor boundaries they enclose - those last ten or so addresses.

It's also a bit irritating - it zooms out to full every time you enter a new code, and doesn't offer the zoom slider control, just the + and - buttons, tut tut tut (or rather  click click click click...)!

UK Postcode Map

For what it may be worth, I believe I've solved this little "conspiracy theory" ;) and the answer's really simple and boring.

I was testing a new Firefox add-on (currently experimental), an automatic postcode mapper UK Postcode Mapper :: Add-ons for Firefox

It works fine (it sweeps the current page you are viewing for postcodes, lists them for you, and when you click one, it opens up a Google - or other choice - map centred on the postcode).

While we possibly approached the question of QinetiQ's marker in Saltcoats from a point of view which asked "Why did they place it there?", this assumed they placed the marker.

This assumption was wrong :B

When I did a check of other business on the Ardeer site and checked their poscodes, it turned out to be the same as QinetiQ's - not perhaps a surprise - but I then used the new add-on to show where the postcode location was...

You guessed it :)

The marker is in the same place as QinetiQ's.

So far from using the marker to "hide" their location, all they have done is use the location of their postcode to place their marker, and if they committed any sin, it was of not checking to see how close the postcode placed the marker to their actual front door.

They will just have made up their little location map/page, and left it to the mapping code and postcode lookup to place the marker, and are probably none the wiser as to its "distant" location.

::)

Yup, that's pretty much what I was implying - they've just bunged in the postcode and used that location...

Well having looked at my Stenlake books,the visitation by Japanese and Chinese dignitaries was on an internal rail wagon that was horse drawn.  There was a picture of an internal diesel narrow guage loco as well.

The picture at Snodgrass junction was of an ex Caledonian Railways steam loco, something like an 0-6-0 arrangement with a few explosives trucks and one of the old guards wagons.

In Ardeer what was the huge sphere at Stevenston that was demolished a few years back.

I can't comment on Stevenston in particular, and have no idea what scale it was on, but we had a few intriguing towers with spherical containers on top that looked particularly interesting around Glasgow and its outskirts, but over the years I've learned that these were generally nothing more than water towers from other researchers.

There doesn't seem to have been any technical reason for the choice, and I suspect it was just to make publicity photos of their related factories look modern, with the white spheres looking better than the usual rusty steel containers that usually appeared in the postwar years. These folk had the money to be different, and used it.

Spherical building at ground level were often used in the process industry where accidents could have led to the release of contaminants - the sphere being the strongest structure with no corners or other similar stress points. See also the Dounereay dome of course.

This is the sphere, by this time most of the modern plant at ICI had been demolished.

http://www.railbrit.org.uk/photos/8259.jpg

It looks like a pressurised gas storage tank - Bernd and Hilla Becher specialised in photographing things like that. They seemed to have been more common on the Continent for some reason...

Quoted from BenCooper

Yup, that's pretty much what I was implying - they've just bunged in the postcode and used that location...

Wish I'd seen what you meant, I deseve  ;D or  :B for missing the true meaning.

But, I don't think it's wholly fair to suggest QinetiQ bungled - lots of others would then have to be tarred with the same brush. All they've done is allow the postcode to place their marker, something accurate enough to get their mail to the right address.

What we have however learned from JadeFalcon's valuable local knowledge is that the Post Office placed the marker on their local sorting office.

The question now is... is there anyone out there patient and knowledgeable enough to go and check all the rest, and see if that's a rule are there countless thousand of markers sitting on sorting offices, instead of the companies most folk assume they they indicate?

It would certainly explain some of the odd indications I've had when using online business directories to find businesses.

Quoted from BenCooper

It looks like a pressurised gas storage tank - Bernd and Hilla Becher specialised in photographing things like that. They seemed to have been more common on the Continent for some reason...

From what I know, I do believe it was part of the more modern construction that took place in Ardeer, not part of the earlier factory, although that seems obvious just by its appearance.  

Picassa has decided to play ball and all the gallery pics now have titles.

Quoted from JadeFalcon

From what I know, I do believe it was part of the more modern construction that took place in Ardeer, not part of the earlier factory, although that seems obvious just by its appearance.  

I'd guess, by it's location, that it was part of the nylon plant...

Can anyone confirm whether there was a second workers station for ICI Ardeer.  According to Wiki and some other tenuous comments, its hinted that in addition to the one near the later Nylon plant which still has remnants there, there was a second station off Snodgrass Junction.  

I didn't see anything resembling an old station at Snodgrass Junction.

It does a little more than hint, and is specific:

Quoted Text

Because of the large numbers of workers using the station, a second platform had to be built on the other side of the River Garnock at the so called 'Snodgrass branch' (named after the former Snodgrass village in the area) in the 1940s. Access to this platform was gained via the Glasgow to Ayr line, just north of Bogside railway station. This branch is now also a small stub.

It give a reference to the Ardeer Peninsula Masterplan, p. 13

This is identified as a Stenlake publication, but I don't have many of them, and not this one:

Smith, W.A.C. (2001). Stenlake Publishing - Ayrshire’s Last Days of Steam ISBN 1-8403-3151-8. OCLC 47232834.

You've probably done the same as me hand had a poke around the railbrit site - but I didn't have much success pinning anything down, and found I got overwhelmed by the amount of info around the related railway line after a while.

Just got a copy of a 1905 Nobel's promotional book, which has a lovely massive fold-out panorama:



There's loads of rail lines on this - I've not quite oriented myself with this drawing, but I think it's taken from somewhere near Africa House.

That's a wonderful view, but after looking at the detail and scale of a number of items in it, and your comment that it is a drawing, it might not be all that easy to match in termd of orientation. The artist may have taken some liberties with the content, and it may bear more relation to the management's "mind's eye" view of the place, rather than reality.

Yes, I'm beginning to realise that - some of the train lines don't look quite right...

There are some strange things in it.  A set of railway lines changes markedly either side of an overhead cable and some of the trees seem to be composed of enormous leaves.   I think it is based on photographs which have then been greatly touched up.    

The building to the right of one of the railway lines, the two storey building with the clock tower, did exist.  It was the Main office.  The lower floor housed management staff and it was demolished in the late 60's - early 70's.  The Stenlake book of Old Stevenston has a good picture of it.

The double railway track on the centre are of the picture, to the left of the 1898 marker,  that comes round in a gentle curve could possibly be the Ardeer Platform railway station.  Wikipedia and Old Stevenston notes that this was quite a long platform and was capable of taking trains of up to about 10 carriages.

More lightning conductors: