Rudolf Hess Flight - Print Topic

Please check the wiki contents which now has an entry for Rudolf Hess' 1941 flight to Scotland.

This started out ages ago as a few lines, just out of interest, but grew into a huge file that had to be edited down to remove the speculative and conspiracy based items, and then the content provided by those with a 'Point to Prove' and then the politically and belief biased threads. It's a wonder there was anything left after a while.

It actually becomes rather interesting to piece something like this together, as it becomes apparent how the 'truth' behind the conspiracy theories is probably more about latter-day authors placing a bit of 'spin' on an inconsistency or detail that differs between accounts (or an entirely absent piece of information they deem 'essential'), so that they can write a book building on the point, knowing they have an almost guaranteed audience/income for their effort.

The worst aspect of this is that while there may be some foundation in some of the early items (I'm not saying there is though), the latter items that build and expand on them, and become more elaborate as time passes, obscure and distort past evaluations.

I have to say that being steeped in the references for a few week has made me pretty skeptical of most, if not all the conspiracy theories. He was probably deluded, he probably wanted out, Hitler probably knew he was making the flight, he probably supported it on the offchance it succeed, probably had the insanity story ready if it backfired, and the Allies probably reckoned they had a prize catch for free, regardless of his mental state.

There's no surprise there were odd stories floating about - both sides had active propaganda ministries, tasked with ensuring the other side was kept off balance.

BBC2 Monday October 09 21:00

Nuremberg: The Nazis on Trial

This will be one to watch then, to see what version of the story the use as the background for their re-creation.

The trailer has already skewed the story, as a phrase describing the "Flight to England" was heard.

Guess it's not a BBC Scotland production ;D

Thought about this afterward, and I probably wan't being fair, as what I heard was a dramatisation, so it was German officers discussing Hess that I heard, so they would only think of a flight in this direction as being to England or Britain, so I wasn't being fair ::)

The overwhelming majority of Johnny Foreigners think of the whole UK as England, its historical and the union of 1707 made not a jot of difference to a world who knew only of England.

Talking of 1707 I wonder how the Scottish Parliament will mark the 300th. anniversary next year .... or how the Executive will manage to avoid marking it.

Twas hardly a spectacular example of democracy at work.

I occasionally allow myself a little smile when I read some stories, and this alternative version of the capture of Rudolph Hess shortly after he bailed out raised one such smile.

While I've never come across any claims that Hess was held at Comrie (other than this one), consistent accounts indicate he spent 7 nights in Scotland, counting his arrival at 11 pm as contributing one night.

This following story smacks more of something dreamt up and spread about by the Toffs and Jolly Good Fellows, affronted that a lowly ploughman should be credited with such a worthy prize.

It's certainly never popped up in any of the books or extracts I read over a 2 week period researching the landing, nor did any reference to Comrie.

Comrie is understandable as an assumption though, given it was used to hold the most hardcore Nazi prisoners, and you probably also know the inmates murdered one of their own, believing him to be a British spy. Five prisoners were tried and executed.

The story, unedited:-

Note - there are accounts that Rudolph Hess was held at this camp for 1 night when he crash landed in Scotland. However, the following email from Peter R McNaughton would refute that:

"You may be interested in knowing that Rudolph Hess never stayed at Camp 21 in Comrie. He did, however, stay at Buchanan Castle some 40 miles away, near Buchlyvie.
The father of a friend of mine was the one who captured him. The story goes that Mr. Clark was at a soiree in the evening and heard the crash. On looking out he saw flames coming from a crashed aircraft on the hillside.
He was dressed in a tuxedo and strapped on his Sam Brown belt with revolver over it and went to investigate. He came across this figure moaning and staggering around. He drew his revolver and then took the man to the house where the soiree was being held. There the prisoner was handed over to the military police. It was only later that he realized that his revolver was not loaded! And only much later that he found out that his prisoner was, in fact, Hess.
The following day, much to his embarrassment the Duke of Hamilton, a Spitfire pilot in Edinburgh, was asked to go and identify him. Apparently Hess had met him in Berlin in or around 1936. Hess thought that by naming him and suggesting he knew him, that the Duke could identify him and would lead him to Churchill. Hess, of course, was a lunatic. He had apparently hoped to come to an arrangement of stopping the War. The following day he was sent to London where he was incarcerated in the Tower of London until he was flown to Nuremberg.
The article that everyone quotes was in either the Daily Mail or the Daily Mirror. As with many rags the reporter jazzed up the article with this comment. [That he was held at the POW camp]
Rudolph Hess was never in Comrie Camp (Camp 21) but was in Scotland for only two nights. The first when he was captured (or gave himself up) and the second at Buchanan castle in Bucklyvie near Kippen and Loch Lomond in Stirlingshire.

A question about the Hess flight. I've got somewhat of an interest in Local History, and one of the books on Irvine mentions that there was a Royal Observer Corps Observation post on top of the old Blue Billy Bing in what is now the Irvine Beach Park, and that they were credited with the first definite visual confirmed sighting of Hess's plane. I've never heard this mentioned elsewhere.

It's the Old Irvine book by Neil Stirrat that mentions this.

Hi Jade, thanks for dropping in...

The ROC (admittedly the Cold War period) is one of my special interests, and I was fortunate enough to make a note of the account of the observation of the Hess flight by the World War II observers, and a quotation is included in the Hess Flight Page on the main site:

http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/RudolfHessFlight

This notes that Assistant Observer Group Officer Major Graham Donald couldn't get anyone to believe him at the time, but was later commended by his superior for making his report.

As noted on the page, the original source of this quotation has since vanished from the web, but I am sure the ROC Association would recognise it, and provide details to confirm if anyone needed to make it 'official'.

Quite a lot has already been written about the Rudolph Hess flight to Scotland on May10th 1941, and I myself have made several postings on other threads. It is of course likely we'll never know with 100% certainty what the whole story was; however, I have always had a feeling at the back of my mind that the Hess affair was contrived by the likes of Churchill and the British Secret Service. I have recently read a book, "Foot Prints in Time", written by John Colville, and published by Collins in 1976, and it dispels any thoughts in my mind that there was more to the Hess's timely flight than we have been led to be believe.

Colville was one of Churchill's Private Secretaries, and on the evening of Saturday May 10th 1941, he was alone at #10 Downing St. while Churchill was off spending the weekend at Ditchley. Colville spent the night sheltering in the rather flimsy accommodation at #10, while the Luftwaffe plastered London with high explosives and incendiaries, in what was probably the most devastating raid of the war.

After the "All-Clear" Colville went out for a walk and a bit fresh air. On his way back to #!0 he dropped into the Foreign Office for a chat with his friend, who was Anthony Eden's Private Secretary. Eden's Secretary was speaking on the telephone and he said to Colville,

" This may be a lunatic. He says he's the Duke of Hamilton and that something extraordinary has happened, that he's about to fly down from Scotland to Northolt, and that he wants to be met by Alec Cadogan [Asst. Foreign Secy.], and the Prime Minister's Secretary.".

Colville spoke to the Duke and asked, "Has somebody arrived?", to which the Duke replied,

"Yes, please be at Northolt to meet me.", and rang off.

Colville telephoned Ditchley and asked for instructions from the Prime Minister.

"Well, who, has arrived?", asked Churchill.

"I don't know", replied Colville, "He [Hamilton] wouldn't say.

"It can't be Hitler?" asked Churchill, to which Colville answered,"I imagine not.".

"Well stop imagining, and have the Duke sent straight here from Northolt.", answered Churchill.

A careful reading of the foregoing will doubtless lead to the Questions:

(1) Why was Colville's first reaction to ask, "Has somebody arrived?" ? and
(2) Why was Churchill's first reaction to ask, "Well, who, has arrived?" ?

The answer to Question #1 is simply that during the air-raid Colville had been dozing and daydreaming about Peter Fleming's 1940 book, "Flying Visit", a fantasy which had Hitler inadvertently landing in the U.K.. But it wasn't Hitler Colville had been daydreaming about, but Göring, who it was rumoured, was believed to take flights in German bombers.

The answer to Question #2, is that Churchill too was aware of the information from Air ministry Intellegence, that Göring was believed to take flights in German bombers, and simply in his thoughts, replaced Göring with Hitler.

I now believe that it was later that day, Sunday May 11th, that Churchill first learned, from the Duke of Hamilton, that Hess had arrived in Scotland, and that MI5 and/or MI6 had nothing to do with the arrival of Hess in Scotland.

Just as an aside, does anyone here think Hess actually deserved the life imprisonment that he got at Spandau. While he was a Nazi he seemed to have a lot less blood on his hands than a lot of them. In fact, after Himmler appeared on the scene Hess was positively sidelined.

Quoted from JadeFalcon

Just as an aside, does anyone here think Hess actually deserved the life imprisonment that he got at Spandau. While he was a Nazi he seemed to have a lot less blood on his hands than a lot of them. In fact, after Himmler appeared on the scene Hess was positively sidelined.

I don't think Hess deserved the sentence of life imprisonment that he was given at Nuremberg. The two counts for which Hess was found guilty at Nuremberg were:

(1) Planning and preparation of aggressive war;  and
(2) Conspiracy to commit crimes.

For this guilt, Hess served the rest of his life in Spandau Prison. One might note that if George Bush or Tony Blair were tried today in court  for planning and preparing for an aggressive war, or conspiring to commit crimes, they would, beyond any doubt, be found guilty by virtue of having planned and waged an aggressive war against a sovereign nation. Even aside from the current Iraq situation, almost all leaders, Churchill, included, would have been guilty of the same crimes for which Hess served a life sentence... planning, preparing, and conspiring for war, is part of a leader's job-description.

While Hess may have been involved to some extent with the persecution of minority groups in Greater Germany, he was not a part of the Nazi excesses which developed after Hess was incarcerated in Britain. It is my belief, that these Nazi excesses, while not mentioned as part of the crimes for which Hess was found guilty, played a role in the unjust level of punishment handed down to him; and I feel further, that it was the realisation of  Hess seeming to have "a lot less blood on his hands " that led the western powers to seek his early release from Spandau.

For much the same reason I think the life sentence handed to Grand Admiral Erich Raeder and 20 years to Grand Admiral Karl Donitz were also excessive. The worst excesses of the Nazi regime seemed to have been perpetrated by the likes of Reinhard Heydrich and his ilk.

How legends begin... propagate... spread... become... fact...

It must be true, it's on a BBC web site:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/42/a2713042.shtml

And...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/24/a2045224.shtml

As usual, while looking for something else, I came across the following recent release from the National Archives...

Rudolf Hess in Spandau Prison

Contains minutes of the meetings of the Spandau Prison governors, in addition to correspondence with legal advisers for each of the Four-Power Authorities (UK, USA, France and the Soviet Union). Discussions in this file concentrate on the state of Hess´s health and the negotiations between the three western powers and the Soviet governor to allow Hess to receive medical treatment at the British Military Hospital in Berlin.

Many items in the files relate to the campaign to release Hess in the build-up to his 80th birthday.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/releases/2007/september/rudolf.htm?homepage=releases

If you want have your own copies of some Hess documents, you can get them for free by following the link on that page to the DocumentsOnline option.

Follow the procedure as if you were going to purchase the copies and you'll end up at a page asking for your email (if you were actually purchasing docs, the email is used to tell you where you can download your purchase) and your credit card details.

You do NOT need to enter your credit card details - as soon as you hit Return it will take you to the Free Download Page.

You might not even need to enter an email address since it's not actually needed either, but I did stick one in just in case.

They are worth a look, and bring home the the truth of things like the intransigence of the Russian in response to anything Hess requested (they didn't want him to be given a new notebook to write in until the old one had first been removed from him and destroyed), and the intense level of legal detail any requests or claims were subject to.

I downloaded the lot, but will probably never find the time even to look at these few docs in detail, and look in alarm at content that refers to things like the 883rd and the 1,346th meeting. Hess's long incarceration certainly kept a lot of people in a job.

Quite why the search engine decided the following met the criteria I had entered to try and track down the original story about a dispute about Tiree airstrip is beyond me, however I thought I'd give you the chance to read this take on the Rudolf Hess flight.

I haven't read it in total, and admit to have dropped it into the drivel box, considering it to have "an agenda" and having spotted a para that refers to "On the night of the 10th May the landing lights of the airstrip had been turned on as the result of a phone call from the home of the Duke of Buccleuch, but were switched off a few minutes later a few minutes later by a group of strangers who had entered the house."

Yes folks, in wartime Britain, groups of strangers could just wander into a house that hosted a temporary runway with landing lights, and turn them off without being challenged or identified. Bear in mind that if the lights had just been turned on, then the place was not unmanned at the time, so...

It probably makes a good read, if nothing else: http://www.paragoy.com/hess.html

I was reading about Hess' son, (Wolf Rüdiger Hess, 1937-2001), an unapologetic Nazi and fervent supporter of Adolf Hitler, who (and I can understand his bitterness given the treatment given to Rudolf Hess) maintained to his dying day that the British SAS murdered his father to prevent his parole (which many thought was imminent). Wolf was sure that the murder was committed because the British were afraid that his father would reveal embarrassing information about British actions during the war, if he was allowed to speak freely. However, this position is rebutted by the release, in 2007, of documents demonstrating British support for Hess' release on humanitarian reasons and their campaign against steadfast Soviet opposition to his release.

The BBC covered this:

Rows over the jailing of Adolf Hitler's deputy became a key point of Cold War tension, papers reveal. Rudolf Hess was held in Berlin's Spandau prison until his suicide in 1987, aged 93. The documents show British governors fought Soviet attempts to turn the jointly-run jail into a "gulag" labour camp with just one prisoner.

France, the US, UK and Russia jointly managed the jail - and disputes over Hess led to bitter recriminations. Hess had been in custody since flying to Scotland in 1941. Marginalised in the Nazi hierarchy with increasing mental problems, he thought he could strike a peace deal with Britain so Hitler could invade Russia unhindered. He ended up jailed for life at the Nuremberg war crime trials. By the 1970s, he was the only Nazi left in Spandau and a humanitarian campaign had been launched to see him released. The three western powers sympathised but could do nothing without the Soviet Union's agreement.

In files originally opened two years ago after a Freedom of Information request, National Archives documents show the stand-off reached a boiling point in 1974. The Western powers fell out with Russia over Hess's health after doctors warned he could have cancer. The British wanted Hess taken for tests at their nearby military hospital. But the Russians told the Americans to pay for an x-ray machine in the prison instead. The papers show how British governor, Robert de Burlet, began taking his Russian counterparts to task over "prisoner number seven", as Hess was officially known.

In one meeting, de Burlet demanded the Russians see sense. "If you keep him in prison until he dies, you have created a martyr who would be remembered not for his own misdeeds but for the inhumane treatment which he himself suffered." The Russian official, Romanovsky, privately conceded that he sympathised with the British position. But he said decisions over Hess were taken at the top and added: "I do not think that for us it will be possible to release him - the political difficulties are too great."

And so Hess's regime remained strict. Confined to a small badly-furnished cell, his requests for more relaxed rules led to petty and pointless political clashes. The Russian governor began censoring large parts of Hess's letters to his wife. He ordered his guards to take Hess's glasses at lights out - a regulation that was never followed by the other powers. When a Russian guard established that Hess had 13 photographs in his cell, rather than the regulation 10, three were removed - leading to another row in the governors' office. Hess wrote himself a sign reminding himself to stand up in the presence of the Russian commandant. The three other powers said they didn't want an old man to stand. The British became convinced the Russians wanted to turn Spandau into a western outpost of the "Gulag Archipelago" - the Soviet Union's forced labour camps.

In one incident, Hess saw some windfall plums in the prison gardens and wanted to take them inside rather than leave them to the birds. The Soviet guard said no - but was overruled by the British warder. Within days, the incident had escalated into a full-scale row between the four governors with the Russians accusing the British of breaching the original post-war agreement over war criminals and demanding reports and disciplinary action. "We have what I consider a genuine case of mental cruelty," said Robert de Burlet. "Whatever horrors the Germans had perpetrated in their concentration camps I do not want it to be said that we were following their example." London urged him to resist attempts to tighten the regime and diplomatically endure lecturing from Russian generals, one of whom was frequently the worst for drink.

Hess's birthday passed with no sign of movement on release. And in a sarcastic editorial marking the occasion in Pravda - the Kremlin's official newspaper - explained why.

"The Hitlerite lieutenant must drink his retribution to the bottom of the cup," it said.

Hot on the heels of Wolf Hess's assertion that the British, the SAS, MI6 (and probably the kitchen sink at some point), murdered Rudolf Hess, I've uncovered "the truth" buried in a newspaper item from 2001, and written by the first person to investigate the death scene of Rudolf Hess in Spandau prison.

While the world speculated about the death of the 93 year old in 1987, found hanged in his cell - a fact given as evidence that he was actually murdered because he was physically incapable of carrying out the act himself due to arthritic fingers - Ian Brewster, the head of crime scenes for Gwent Police, had been keeping the real truth a secret until 2001, when he decided to spill the beans to an unknown reporter on a nondescript Welsh newspaper in Gwent.

Of course, it's all perfectly clear now, it was really the Americans that murdered Hess, using a carefully crafted psychological ploy designed to manipulate the old man's mind, and coerce him into killing himself, so that they'd clearly be blameless, or maybe the British would get the blame.

Anyone interested in Hess at all should read Eugene K Birds book "THe Loneliest Man in the World". This was written when Hess was still alive and basically starts off when the Nuremberg defendents were still in the prison and awaiting trial.

"Ian Brewster, the head of crime scenes for Gwent Police,..."

Ian who?
The what police?

I hadn't seen this article before, and it was the Laurel & Hardy reference that caught my eye first, but the reality is far from humorous, with a reflection on the difference between the Soviet military and diplomatic arms.

"In this environment the velvet glove is off and the mailed fist and the venom are all too plain to see."

How Soviet ‘Laurel and Hardy’ punished Hess - Times Online

A friend of my parents, a Mr Stark, was the Chief Board of Trade investigator in Scotland. He investigated the "liberation" of the cargo from a grounded merchantman in the Western Isles, later to to become well known as the "Whisky Galore" affair. However prior to his taking up the appointment he had been head of Special Branch in Renfrewshire. One night he was called out to go to Eaglesham Police Station to investigate and report on a German airman being held there. On arrival at Eaglesham it was clear that this was no ordinary prisoner and arrangements were made to transfer him in the morning. He was then escorted to Maryhill Barracks and handed over to military custody. In all Stark probably spent about 8 hours in contact with Hess. When he told the story in later years he added his assessment that "Hess was mad as a hatter".

Stark was a big (weren't they all!) scottish policeman who hailed from highland stock. He displayed the straightforward shrewdness that seemed to characterise the police of that era. He was a good "thief taker" and after the war rose to become deputy Chief Constable of Renfrewshire. I listened to his stories and I listened when others spoke of him, all respected him although some may have feared him. I know people who guarded Hess in Spandau years later and all they tell me would appear to back up Stark's original assessment:

Mad as a hatter!

exmpa

Things must be quiet in the world...

There's only the torthcoming Scottish elections, fighting in Libya, an earthquake and tsunami in Japan, followed by damage to a number of nuclear power plants and assorted releases of nuclear material, a collection of Middle East revolts and deposed rulers, a European fuel crisis, Afghanistan still bubbling away, and a Royal wedding to apparently... so, nothing really noteworthy, although most papers would be able to fill a few column inches every few days I am sure.

But...

The Daily Record is stuck, and trawls up a re-run of the story of Rudolf Hess and his flight to Scotland in 1941.

And trawls up really is a fair description, as it has singularly failed to add or contribute anything to the story, and merely raked over the coals of speculation, which will glow for another six years, until the documents held in the National Archives are released in 2017 - although I doubt there will be that much of a revelation on the day, such has been the level of speculation and fantasy over the years, the truth - if there is any - will be an anti-climax.

Rudolf Hess: The enduring riddle of Hitler's deputy's flight to Scotland - The Daily Record

But I could be wrong ;)

Probably the only thing of real interest that comes with the (re-)publication of this story is the level of banality and lack of intelligence of the comments the Record's readers have been able to add to the article. Do they think anyone will believe them?

Oh well, maybe it's not all a waste of space.

They did mention (in the last line) that the RAF would providing a display for the Eaglesham Fair on May 21, to mark the 70th anniversary of the part played by Eaglesham in this odd story.

Thanks for posting the Hess Saga Apollo. It is still an interesting story. While I feel like yourself, that there is "nothing really noteworthy" in the Daily Record's rehashing of the facts and whatever else has become a part of the tale, the 70th anniversary of it deserves renewed mention.

You know, this landing of Hess back then in Glasgow really was a big deal. Everybody was talking about it, with wild speculations galore. Hess I'd guess, was a known political person to most Glaswegians at that time, and to have him drop in among us at a time when Britain was positively reeling under countless German successes, was absolutely astounding. I remember it oh so very well, although I must confess that this being the 70th Anniversary had not occurred to me.

London at the time of Hess's landing, on May 10, 1941, was receiving I believe (not 100% sure of date), one of the heaviest air-raids of the war and here we were up in Glasgow stealing the headlines... well aware that history was currently establishing itself, right here in our Glasgow! I think the Daily Record is making use of something to which they are fully entitled.

I've read up quite a bit on the Nazi regime as basically I have an interest in World War II and the aftermath right up to the Cold War. One thing that was mentioned was that despite Hess's grand sounding title of Deputy Fuehrer, it was basically an empty title. Hitler had already designated others to act in his stead if he was incapacitated, and with others like Dr Goebbels, Reichsmarchall Goering and Reichfuehrer SS Himmler growing their own personal fiefdoms, Hess was increasingly sidelined to a largely ceremonial role. The other ones mentioned had their own responsibilities like propoganda, the Luftwaffe and the SS, Hess really didn't have very much.

What you are saying here Jade, may well be true, but in Glasgow in 1941, indeed in the U.K. and maybe even the rest of the world, this as far as I'm aware, was not common knowledge. From what I have been led to believe from German sources, neither was Hess's fall from grace common knowledge in Germany. Hess was still seen as an Nazi "big wig". In the Third Reich the Hess departure was pretty well dealt with in much the same way it was in the UK.

I don't quite see the Hess "empty title" idea as being of any great importance in what happened in 1941. I believe it was a profound event, and the reaction around the world was exactly as it should have been. Its immediate effect on the people in the Third Reich was an astonishment as meaningful as it was to us in the UK. How this manifested itself among the German people I don't know, but I'd guess they weren't left feeling good about it. On the other hand, I think we in the UK got a bit of an uplift from it.

Nah Jade, I don't believe the "empty title" plays any role in the Hess Affair: he was a Nazi big shot who came to the UK at the height of the war. I was going to use the word "defected" but chose not to, because it is my belief that he really did come to Britain in the hope of bringing about a rapprochement between the UK and Germany... and I don't think defection was ever a part of his plan.

By the way, to many people around the world, the title enjoyed by Hess was no emptier than that enjoyed by King George VI, and we can imagine the effect the departure of our king would have had on the UK.

What I meant partially was that while it wasn't common knowledge about Hess being gradually sidelined, its possible that he thought that getting Britain to sign a peace agreement might have got him back in the Fuehrers good books and back in his inner circle and regaining some of the influence he once had.

I see what you mean here Jade, and agree that it may indeed have played a role in encouraging him to fly to the UK. There is of course, no doubt at all that if he'd been the architect of a successful rapprochement between the UK and Germany he'd have been back into the "inner circle" as you call it.

Supposing, as has been speculated, that Hitler himself had been a party to the flight plan? If so, the fact that Hess had been chosen by Hitler contradicts the idea that Hess no longer enjoyed a meaningful position in the hierarchy of the Nazi Party. This emissary idea had cropped up among the hierarchy of the Party before. Hermann Göring had been involved in some way or other in a plan to approach the British government secretly in London before the war in an endeavour to improve the relations between the two countries. You know, it could be that Göring did in fact come to London, but I don't know.

There's a rather strange story on the BBC News site today, marking the anniversary of Rudolf Hess's landing in Scotland on this day in 1941.

I suggest having a read at it, and fairly closely.

BBC News - Witness recalls Nazi Rudolf Hess landing in Scotland

I always feel slightly uncomfortable when a 'new' witness is wheeled out, and provides a story that conflicts with what has come to light over the years.

However, I also understand how some people might have had no desire to speak before, and are getting old now, and might not be with us much longer.

However, even before I checked my own notes - based on what I believe to be consistent elements of the story of Hess's arrival in Scotland - I was developing a furrowed brow, and thinking that facts were not gelling.

In brief, the points I have problems with in the BBC's new account are:

The witness was only 10 years old, but refers to hearing "the unsynchronised engines of a German plane".

I doubt that - this takes practice, or engineering sympathy, both unlikely. Perhaps he was told this at the time.

The witness says "It was very, very unusual. We could see it wasn't a bomber and we recognised it as an ME 110 - it was recognisable to all of us in these days."

Problem, the 110 was a twin-engined fighter bomber. If they were so familiar with types, they should not have specifically said it was not a bomber.

The witness says "And then, strangely - I have never known the reason - we heard cannon fire.
"My father shouted: 'It is the RAF, they are after the bastard - they are after him'. But there was no RAF plane there.
"So my only explanation is that the plane was armed in some way and Hess was getting rid of the ammunition because obviously he was running out of fuel."

So far, I have only seen accounts that say Hess's aircraft was unarmed, so he wasn't firing unless the past tales are all wrong.

Also, you might dump fuel before making a crash landing, not fire the guns/cannons - and as noted, he was empty of fuel anyway.

The witness also refers to the fuss over Hess's presence there. but as far as I can see, at Busby Home Guard Company HQ, he identified himself as Hauptmann Albert Horn. But, I can't identify a point at which he was identified as Hess.

I do have an account by an ROC volunteer who identified the downed pilot as Hess, but he also states that no-one there would believe him!

Finally, the witness states that the pilot was walking without difficulty, yet the accounts of his broken ankle, and treatment at Buchanan Castle, Drymen, are consistent.

I don't know what to make of this new tale.

New information?

Or just 70 year old memories of a 10 year old, coloured by the passage of time, and things overheard from adults speculating nearby?

There is one other point...

Our 10 year old says hew outside playing football when Hess arrived...

Hess arrived just after 11 pm on this day in 1941, 11 pm on May 10 - playing football outside?

Quoted Text

He told BBC Scotland: "It was a Saturday. It was a very pleasant day - sun and cloud - and as I recall it my father and I were at the back of the house under a great big chestnut tree, kicking a football about, when we heard the unsynchronised engines of a German plane.

"Now that was unusual during daytime and it flew over the chestnut tree.

"My father said: 'Look at him, look at him' but I missed him just as he went past.

Makes you think ;)

STV also chose to mark the day with a story too, but with no speculation, and even a suggestion that there was no real mystery at all:

Rudolf Hess: Why did the leading Nazi fly to Scotland? | Glasgow and West | STV News

Pictures: Rudolf Hess and Eaglesham

I agree with you on this one Apollo. I had intended to comment earlier but I was otherwise engaged. Yes, this 'new' witness they wheeled out does have a few reminiscences that are out of step with the facts. I think the most obvious one is the account which tells of the "war criminal" (I must check if Hess really was a war criminal... if he was he shouldn't have been!) being pulled from his wrecked plane, as he was not in the aircraft when it crashed. What kind of news rag I wonder would print is "...to members of the Corporal Royal Signals" which is clearly a typo.

Among the problems with which you had trouble, you mention the boy hearing "the unsynchronised engines of a German plane". This could have been a fact, even for a 10-year old. Well, if we drop the word "unsynchronised". I think a boy interested in aircraft at that time and been subjected to "air-raid precaution" material at school, could have identified the sound of a German engine. In 1941 the boy likely had been there through the Clydeside blitz and spent the best part of a night listening to them. On the other hand, I don't think boys of that age could have identified cannon fire from machine gun fire...if there had been any.

While on the subject of the boy, his claim to have been playing football at that time is not completely unreasonable. I recall playing football on Crossloan Rd., Govan, during an air raid before the "All clear" had gone... and that was in the middle of the night, ( the night on which it was rumoured that a German plane had crashed into the SCWS Shieldhall factories and hundreds of people took to the streets to walk to the factories area which was burning furiously).

Anyway, even with these questionable points the Hess saga still makes an interesting read, and it always reminds me of my unsuccessful bike ride to find Eaglesham the day after it all happened.

Of course quite a lot would be explained if there were 2 people in the plane, one who parachuted out and one who was pulled from the wreckage. It would also explain the accounts of hess being detained in two places at the same time! The ME110 was designed for a crew of 2, even 3 for night flying.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,765607,00.html

Yes, I know, we've already hammered this topic right left and centre, but there is some information from the German news-media "Spiegel online International." (web address shown above) which might still be of some interest. I found the following extracts interesting:

"Until now, historians had assumed that Hitler's deputy was acting on his own. "Hess acted without Hitler's knowledge, but in the deep (if confused) belief that he was carrying out his wishes," British author Ian Kershaw wrote in his 2008 book, "Hitler: A Biography". But now a previously unpublished document is casting Hess's notorious one-way trip in a new light: A 28-page, handwritten report that historian Matthias Uhl of the German Historical Institute Moscow discovered in the State Archive of the Russian Federation.

The document was written in February 1948 by a man who was closely associated with Hess: his adjutant Karlheinz Pintsch, a Soviet war prisoner from 1945 to 1955. Pintsch, a businessman who joined the Nazi Party early on, had accompanied Hess to the airfield. The next day he had Hitler's aides wake up the Führer at his mountain retreat in Obersalzberg to give him a letter. According to eyewitnesses, the letter began with the words: "My Führer, when you receive this letter I shall be in England."

Contrary to the prevailing view, Hitler, according to the Pintsch account, was not furious in the least when he received the news. "Hitler calmly listened to my report and dismissed me without comment," Pintsch writes. The Führer had known about Hess's flight for a while, the adjutant claims in his report, because Berlin had also been negotiating with London for some time. The flight, Pintsch writes, occurred 'by prior arrangement with the English.'. Hess's mission, he adds, was to 'use all means at his disposal to achieve, if not a German military alliance with England against Russia, at least the neutralization of England.' "

The Pintsch account begins to make a little more sense :)

Quoted Text

But Pintsch wrote the statement in 1948 when still a prisoner of war in the Soviet Union and may have used his claims as a means of attaining his freedom.

With the start of the Cold War it could have been possible that the German knew that any information that hinted at secret British dealings with Nazi Germany would have been welcomed by the suspicious and neurotic Josef Stalin.

Rudolf Hess flight to Britain 'approved by Hitler' - Telegraph

Yes Apollo, since Pintsch wrote the statement in 1948 when still a prisoner of war in the Soviet Union he may well have used his claims as a means of attaining his freedom (didn't do him much good apparently... wasn't realeased until 1955!), but just as likely it could have been the truth. Mathew Day, the Telegraph reporter refers to Stalin as "neurotic Josef Stalin". What I wonder is this supposed to tell us about Pintsch's 28-Page statement... render it less believable perhaps? I don't think Stalin was any more neurotic than the other war leaders. We'll just file Pinch's statement with all the other controversial Hess material.

There was another 'new' story last week:

Quoted Text

RUDOLF Hess, whose flight to Scotland in 1941 became one of the most bizarre incidents of the Second World War, planned to build a baronial home in Scotland in the event of Germany's victory.
The deputy Fuhrer, who parachuted into Renfrewshire in May 1941 in a bid to negotiate Britain's surrender with the Duke of Hamilton, drew up plans for the house, which was to have a dining room capable of seating 170 people, while he was held captive
ADVERTISEMENT
at "Camp Z", a country house outside London in 1941.

Hess's plans for his Scottish retreat are revealed in a new book, Camp Z: The Secret Life Of Rudolf Hess, by Stephen McGinty, which details the year the Nazi leader spent at Mytchett Place, a country house near Aldershot, as MI6 tried to uncover his secrets.

He discussed his plans with Lieutenant William Malone, a member of the Scots Guards who were responsible for guarding him during the summer of 1941. As well as planning a rural retreat in Scotland, Hess, who became increasingly paranoid and mentally ill, requested that he be moved from Mytchett Place in England back to Scotland so that he could go cycling.

Lieutenant Colonel Malcolm Scott, the commandant, noted in the diary for Camp Z: "He asks that he may be transferred to Scotland where he could roam over the moors and indulge in his favourite pastime of cycling."

...

Nazi leader planned to build Scottish retreat - Scotland on Sunday

He may have been a little nutty, but he had good taste :)

You have it right Apollo: "He [Hess] may have been a little nutty, but he had good taste". I assume you are speaking here about Hess asking to be transferred to Scotland so that he could indulge in his favourite pastime of cycling. I don't see this as something confirming his nuttyness...proves beyond a doubt that there was nothing wrong with this man's mental health.

Never heard this story before. The Hess saga acquires more and more interesting stuff as the years move on, even if a bit bizarre, and leads one to ponder what the next book will tell us about Nazi Germany's Deputy Führer.

Well BBC Scotland seemed to have had problems with this story.

Interesting Scottish weather forecast...

(lff3)

And now his body has been exhumed and will be cremated, and his grave destroyed because it had become a rallying point for the far right.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14232768

I really don't wish to sound anti-semitic, but I notice in that BBC article that it mentions a spokesperson for a Jewish group. It's getting increasingly tiresome that it seems the entire war is being hijacked especially considering there were many other groups targetted by the Nazis. However, if you point this out, some extremists say you must be a Nazi sympathiser, something I most certainly am not.

Quoted from JadeFalcon

It's getting increasingly tiresome that it seems the entire war is being hijacked especially considering there were many other groups targetted by the Nazis.

I noticed this too Jade. The only part with which I disagree, is the tense of your statement "...the entire war is being hijacked..."... This should be written in the past tense: "...the entire war has been hijacked...".

Well I think I sympathise with the Jewish group here. If your family had been murdered in the concentration camps, and your district was being invaded by thugs who would like to repeat that process, you might see things differently.

Quoted from WM

Well I think I sympathise with the Jewish group here. If your family had been murdered in the concentration camps, and your district was being invaded by thugs who would like to repeat that process, you might see things differently.

That may well be WM, but I think Jade's point was entirely with respect to the history of WWII and had nothing at all to do with the Nazi persecution of the Jews. Indeed, I believe your comment itself exactly underlines the hijacking about which Jade expressed his concern.

Back on the topic of Rudolph Hess, the BBC International news provides an article today about the exhumation of the Hess bones, written by a Thomas Doerfler at the University of Goettingen in Germany. Nothing new in it at all, but it brings to light once again the point made earlier about inaccuracies in media reporting or inaccuracies made by should-have-known-better historians.

This fellow starts off by claiming "Hess owes his ambiguous fame to the circumstances of his death". I do not believe this is true. I believe his "ambiguous fame" could be attributed to a lot more signicant things in his life than this. Hey, he didn't get a front row seat at Nuremberg because he was a suicide candidate! I admit the wording may be ambiguous because of translation and the defenders of the article may claim Doerfler was speaking only with respect to the "right-wingers of all stripes"; but if so, he should have made his meaning clearer. Anyway, there it is in the BBC article, the reason for Hess's "ambiguous fame".

Doerfler goes on to tell us that:
" Britain had started World War II to destroy Germany, and Hess was captured in Scotland to crush the peaceful intentions of Nazi Germany.".

This is simply not true! Britain did not start World War II to destroy Germany. Britain went to war because Germany would not withdraw its troops after invading Poland. And furthermore, Hess was not captured in Scotland, he flew to Scotland on his own free will... he went voluntarily (we think). Okay, it's picky, picky stuff, but from an Historian one would expect something better. Again, if this stems from translation and is meant to be a reflection of what the right-wing nuts are supposed to believe, then Doerfler has not 'reflected' it clearly.

One just has to mention the headline used by the BBC: "Grave concern"

Here is the article:

BBC News - The enduring myth of Rudolf Hess

I would have to say that read in context, as opposed to the cherry-picked pieces offered by Duguld (that not meant in negatively critical way - you have to quote pieces, but some articles need context more than others), Doerfler's points make more sense than when seen or considered in isolation.

I don't say that because I particularly agree with what he says, and his style is certainly (in my opinion) pitched a little to far above the average reader's ability to interpret his points accurately - as an example, take the "ambiguous fame" the Duguld also included.

Really - what does he mean by by this?

Fame is either fame, or it is not, in which case it is obscurity.

I'd probably go with Duguld and his mention of translation - if this was the case and the gent does not have English as one of his languages - and take it he means notoriety.

Maybe.

After reading the whole article, I'm left feeling a little bit wanting, and wondering just what it was really all about, as I reached the end feeling nothing had really been said bar the obvious, and if it had been a third as long, and merely reported the removal of the grave, and the putting out-of-joint of the noses of the neo-Nazis, then it would have sufficed.

Stealing from Duguld again ::) the (article's) meaning is not clear.

It seem like a little opportunistic ramble, much like the case he seems to be making for some special significance about the date, as if some plan had been hatched to do this on the anniversary of the flight to Scotland.

The real reason for the timing of the grave's removal.

This is when the council expects the neo-Nazis in town - despite the ban on their gathering since 2005 - and someone just threw their arms up a few weeks ago when they saw it come round again and said "For god's sake, let's end this and their reason for descending on us."

Oops, Dugald misinterpreted Thomas Doerfler's article... yes indeed! He could have deleted his comments on the article, but chose rather to leave them.

(Ooh... I hope that's not for me - I didn't mean to direct anything at Duguld's interpretation, just at the article and its writer.)

Nah Apollo, my admission of misinterpretation had nothing to do with your post. I had written about my misinterpretation before reading your post. By the time i carried my admission from Wordpro to ScSco you had posted... take a look at the times and you will see there is only about 5 minutes separation.

My misunderstanding was based on not realising Thomas Doerfler's article was as seen through the eyes of one of the neo-Nazis he was criticising.

By the way , the date aspect has to do with the attempted assassination of Hitler and not Hess' landing in Scotland.

:)

You're right about the von Stauffenberg attempt - I wrote about it on the day and have no idea why I mentioned the flight above :B

Relating to the article mentioned in the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-13333536

I don't for one minute believe the 10-year old "witness", but I do believe the bit about Hess being taken out of his plane by Corporal Jack McKenzie. The reason being that he was my Grandfather and often got really annoyed at the "parachute" story that was always trotted out.

There was a Signals unit based at Eaglesham House, of which my Grandfather was a part and he was on guard the night Hess' plane landed in the field. The Signals had tracked the ME-110 and realised that it had passed the point of no return as it crossed onto the British Mainland, flying over somewhere round Berwick. They had been tracking it for some time, but at that point, the technology that allowed them to do so was classified, so no one could know. The guns over Glasgow were ordered not to fire on the plane, as they wanted to see what it was up to.

It landed with some damage (but not being completely wrecked- the plane was pretty much in one piece, but not airworthy by any means) and in the landing Hess broke his ankle. My grandfather and two other corporals of the guard went to investigate and helped "Horn" out of the aircraft. He was then taken to Floors Farm, it being closer than Eaglesham House, and also not military (secret Signals stuff, remember?) where Mr MacLean and his mother lived. He was offered tea by Mrs MacLean but declined politely.

One of the guard was sent back to Eaglesham to request transport for the prisoner. No vehicles were available, so the Home Guard were called. They duly turned up and arrested "Horn" and took him to Maryhill Barracks. The plane was scrapped, loaded on a lorry and taken to a yard where many other downed German aircraft had been dumped. When it transpired that the pilot was Hess, the plane was unearthed and taken back for the photos, hence the reason it looks completely trashed and people believed he parachuted and the plane crashed. I'm not sure if they even got all the bits out of the junk yard, and lots of bits were taken as souveniers by locals and military alike. My grandfather had a piece of the plane for many years, but it got lost in a house move or was thrown out by my grandma (she had a habit of doing things like that with stuff she thought was junk).

The reasons it's probably been left at MacLean and the Home Guard being the plucky people who arrested Hess are probably because 1) no one knew that the Signals were operating such efficient tracking from Eaglesham, 2) the Signals were armed only with pickaxe hafts. No guns. Gramdad got a gun when Hess surrendered his, but he passed it on with the prisoner when they handed him over to the Home Guard. The torch wasn't handed over and I believe it may be in Wales with the family of one of the other Signals Corporals. Finally 3) the Home Guard needed some good publicity at the time, and this was a perfect opportunity, given that it turned out to be Hitler's deputy that had been captured.

Hess kept asking to see the Duke of Hamilton. The Duke visited him in Maryhill (I think) and spent half an hour talking to Hess with no one else there, so no one other than those two know what was spoken about. I wonder if that had anything to do with the life sentence in Spandau (purely my own thoughts about the sentence and not to be taken too seriously. The bit about Hess and the Duke is true though)

I do have bits and pieces of paperwork relating to this incident kicking about in a box somewhere, but a recent house move means I can't put my hands on it right now. I really hope that in 6 years time, when the paperwork is released, my grandfather is vindicated and the Signals get the recognition they deserve for the arrest of Rudolph Hess.

Interesting information, and I suspect it will keep one or two of our members busy over the long winter nights.

As noted, the wait for 2017, and the release of the papers still under seal at the National Archives is now fast approaching - but I can't help but feel it will do little more than when the bulk of the material therein was released early, in 1992, by then Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd. Expectations seem to be that the info will relate to the Duke of Hamilton, but this is, of course only speculation.

Have you seen our page, where an attempt has been made to summarise the least inconsistent public info: Rudolf Hess Flight

We also have a fair amount of articles collected that are more controversial, but these are not made available for public viewing, only for our own reference when checking new stories.

The Admin can also be contacted privately, and respects the confidentiality of any information discussed under such exchanges. Only information released by the owner ever appears within our Wiki pages.

I read the Wiki page, which is why I signed up here just to see if there was any corroborating info on the forums. I will be really interested to see if any other members can add anything to the story.

Part of the bundle of paperwork collected mostly by my father is a sketch of how Hess' plane was found, before it was scrapped and taken away and there are a few other interesting nuggets in there, including the names of the other two corporals that were with my Gramdad that night. I shall see what I can dig up.

If anyone does have anything of interest that they don't wish to put on the forum, I would be quite happy to receive mails.

Myths arise, rural as well as urban. A former colleague of mine, who was from that area, said that the local legend is that Hess landed by parachute and was found wandering round by a loacla farmer, and the following conversation arose:
"Who are you?"
"I am Rodolf Hess, The Deputy Fuhrer of Deutschland."
"Deputy Fuhrer my a**e, get aff ma grun!"
I suspect the story is apocryphal and may have been embellished with the telling!

I wonder if anyone knows of an online video of the interview with ploughman David McLean - this being the interview he gave to the media just after the Hess incident.

This was made available through an online archive run by The Scotsman, but I see that in keeping with what appears to an industry standard 'dirty trick' the site has been re-organised, and all you got when visiting the former web address for this video is a standard page informing you that "The page you are accessing no longer exists and has been moved. Please use the search option to find it."

Or some such nonsense - because I have yet to find a 'lost' page when following that advice, and the search is a waste of time.

They (all of them) should be more honest, and just say they have deleted or removed the pages.

I see the old link to the McLean video now lands on a new 'lifestyle/heritage' page - but a search still doesn't bring up the desired item.

This was the full interview filmed at the time, I think it might even have been mentioned earlier in this thread too, and was a useful reference to see the faces of the people as they gave their accounts at the time of the incident.

It's obviously a handy thing to be able to refer to, so if anyone does come across it, or has a working link, a nod would be appreciated so we can restore it.

This is not new - but I don't this particular item has been mentioned previously (chance find while looking for something else):

Quoted Text

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, the son of the wartime Duke of Hamilton, who wrote the book The Truth About Rudolf Hess, recently uncovered previously hidden documents about the case. He claims his findings reveal that neither MI5, the British security service, nor the Duke had any interest in or knowledge of peace negotiations with the Germans.

The Secret Services, Lord James says, did consider using his father as a double agent after intercepting a letter intended for the Duke sent via an intermediary by Albrecht Haushofer, one of Hess's close advisers. The letter suggested that the Duke and Hess should meet in Portugal to discuss peace but the plan was thought too dangerous.

"The whole thing was a great shock to my father when it emerged. In fact he wrote at the time that he hoped the whole affair would be treated as a four-day wonder. I think he was being a bit optimistic," says Lord James.

"It was a purely unauthorised mission. Hitler did not know about it and was furious when he found out, that is clear from the papers."

Lord James, an MSP for the Lothians, said the claims that his father had been a Nazi sympathiser had not been hurtful to the family but adds: "I was irritated that the government was suppressing documents which I thought was neither necessary nor desirable. As a result, conspiracy theories grew up when the British had such a good story to tell."

He claims his research knocks firmly on the head the theory that Hess was lured here as part of a plot by British Intelligence to engage in peace negotiations. He also clears the name of his father who, even the most ardent theorists agree, was an "unwilling victim" in the whole saga.

Flying under the clouds of the Hess mystery flight - Scotsman.com Heritage & Culture

It's not any sort of 'new' or 'sensational' story - rather, it's more notable for the categoric statements made by Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, the son of the wartime Duke of Hamilton, and his dismissal of most of the others, which are are all arguably more in the myth and conspiracy categories than his.

Although the Hess flight is probably later - but only a little, I think - than the documentary I have in mind, and just saw recently, I was slightly surprised to hear said that early on in World War II, Hitler would have been quite content to have had a negotiated peace with the British, and a nation he considered suitably close to Germany that he did not actually want to fight and conquer.

The programme referred to a number of German staff members who were at least involved in some sort of preparations for negotiating peace with Britain, and the names given were ones I had never heard of (so can't remember any of them). Unfortunately, I only started watching the series I think this was in (Secrets of War, a sort of American World at War narrated by Charlton Heston), and missed many early episodes and their repeats - maybe next time :B

I'll have to try and remember to watch out for this next time the series appears.

I hadn't expected it to be as good as it has turned out to be, but it has the advantage of post-dating WaW by some twenty years, so has access to information that was still classified when WaW was made, so is able to carry on where it left of in some cases.

Of course there is something fishy being witheld ,  I have read much in many books about this flight.

I am aware of the time change that evening & thus quoted times can be in error , however one should be able to believe official logged times.

It is fair to assume that Ottercops Moss would have locked on to him when he was well out above the North Sea  ,  Kenton Bar would have all the info. to hand.

http://www.bpears.org.uk/Misc/War_NE/w_section_07.html

If you check on AA Route planner  , taking their guestimate of the distance from Newcastle-on-Tyne  (well short of the coast)  ,  then the distance to Glasgow is 150 miles  (and this is travelling West then turning North at Carlisle).

A Messerschmitt Bf 110 would be capable of  350 mph  ,  so at half throttle he is going to complete that distance in well under half hour  (the often quoted time over land before bale out / crash landing at the often quoted time of just after 11pm).

However he approached the coast further north than Tyneside ,  apparently the Farne Islands and his flight plan was more or less direct until he got lost and decided to save his skin rather be involved in a uncontrolled crash or bale out not of his choice.

I have read in a few official own accounts / statements and that he was proud that at the age of almost 50 years managed to bale.

This leaves more doubts with this claim that he crash landed and did not bale.   However - how can you believe anything governmental official when they are still witholding certain facts after 70 years   :-/

A slightly odd request compared the usual...

Does anyone have access to flight specs for wartime aircraft?

I can find design specs online with no bother, but information for pilots and flying the things seems rather sparse.

I am currently failing to locate an online source for the take-off and landing requirements for some aircraft.

I am looking for the minimum runway lengths required to operate the Bristol Blenheim, and the Messerschmitt Bf-110.

So far, all I can find online for these (and just about anything else is the aircraft spec ie engines, power, wingspan, length etc etc, which is useless for flight planning.

Well, not useless, but when you're looking for somewhere to set down, none of that matters (since you could be coming in dead stick).

I assume you tried the ferry pilots angle? They had basic instructions for all the then current aeroplanes, well ours anyway.

Try asking on the RAF Commands forum. That's the best source of expertise on the RAF etc that I know.

MB

You may have to define your terms fairly carefully as in those days Aircraft Scheduled Performance was in its infancy, if indeed it had been borne! Nowadays general performance calculations for multi-engined aircraft are constructed around the power unit failure case and performance from a specific runway will take into account; as well as it's length; clearance from obstacles in the initial climb phase. In those less complex days, performance planning may have consisted of little more than a simple table of runway length vs weight or maybe just a couple of examples. Engine out performance was in may cases marginal at best and obstacle clearance advice along the lines of "turn right a bit to avoid the church spire!" Many types would have had a takeoff performance "gap" where in event of engine failure you would neither be able to stop in the distance remaining or continue the takeoff. In many cases this gap continued once airborne with insufficient directional control being available until speed was increased sufficiently but reducing power to keep straight resulting in a "negative rate of climb".

In summary, the figure you might obtain would tend to indicate the field lengths that were used to conduct operations with varying degrees of risk.

exmpa

Too much detail ;D

Although the analysis is spot on - and is probably why no-one has put this online :(

(I have found references - but would you believe that they don't give numbers, merely inform the pilot that the take off and landing runway requirements are similar to other named aircraft.)

But the mention of something like "a simple table of runway length vs weight or maybe just a couple of examples" is the sort of guide I have in mind.

Nowadays, every operational take-off and landing is accompanied by precise calculations (if for no other reason that some mission criteria mean that the loading is so high that going too fast too soon could collapse the undercarriage), and carrier ops are such that one almost wonder how they launch an aircraft in less than an hour. Ok, exaggerating, but the workload is heavy.

To be perhaps a little more exact, max and min figures are what I have in mind, but I didn't want to overcomplicate the question for non-flyers and frighten them off by listing criteria.

A light civil aircraft and an Hercules transport are vastly different, but might operate off the same strip (I'm generalising) but a wartime tail-dragger like a Spitfire or Hurricane (or Blenheim or 110) could need much more strip as it wallows and floats before it settles and can be pulled up.

I really only needed to know that say a dead stick aircraft needs a minimum of say 500, 1000, or 1,500 feet to get down, and that the spec says the pilot must not event attempt a landing if such a distance is not available, as he will over run - and meet the trees at the end of the strip in a most unfriendly way.

There was a news article about this recently, when the wrong weight entered into an in-flight computer nearly resulted in a disaster in a civilian airliner. But fortunately the captain realised the problem and took manual control. A good illustration of the point you have just made.
Disaster Narrowly Avoided

Mmmm.....

Didn't expect this interest. Just a sort of yes or no ::)

This thread's due to evaporate as it has nothing to do with Scottish military

Looks like there's another author out to see what he can spin out of the Hess legacy and see if he can retire on the book sales:

Amusingly, I think, he has Hess's destination as RAF Prestwick, and that Dungavel was 'impossible' so couldn't have been where he was going.

Reading a review of the book almost seems to suggest that Prestwick is referred to as an airport, which it was of course, but it was soon taken over by the RAF when war broke out, so was a military airfield when Hess made is flight.

In 1941, I find it difficult to accept that even Hess would have contemplated trying to fly a Luftwaffe marked Bf-110 into an RAF airfield. Lookouts would have spotted the light bomber approaching, and a combination of AA fire and interceptors would surely have ended the flight.

Unless, of course, all those involved - radar, sector control, lookouts, AA batteries, interceptor flights, station personnel etc etc were all in on the arrival.

If so, he would have been met, and flown in by escorts - if only to prevent other aircraft, observers, or batteries downing the German bomber because they were not in on the plan, but spotted it.

Then again, we already know he was heading for RAF Acklington, so why would he fly across Scotland, needed all that extra fuel on an already extended flight, and having to fly above all those AA batteries, observers, and potential intercepts.

Enjoy this new work of fiction ;) from 2010 (well, let's say it's no more fact than all the other works of speculation that have been spun around the fixed points of fact that are known):

Rudolf Hess: The British Illusion of Peace: Amazon.co.uk: John Harris: Books

Anybody read it?

Probably best to interrogate Google on temp. / makeshift planked fields - did the Luftwaffe use them on the Eastern Front ?

It seems that a B-17 needed at least 660m to take off into wind :-

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=128403&start=15

I like the line in that forum:

"Although Irelands contribution in World War II was nil"

Their research isn't exactly... deep ::)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1323674/How-MI6-spy-lured-Hitlers-deputy-Rudolf-Hess-UK-imprisoned-life.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

;)

At least this is for £ free as a pdf

http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Hess/

:)

There is a specifically Luftwaffe museum near Berlin - try an email. i would be surprised if they had nobody who speaks english.

Meant to ask, did you try here-
http://www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/community/forum.php?s=d5202ae2e1aa8b3d829f831856bc7f52

Beware of anything written by David Irving, his material is free for a reason.

He is a well-known Revisionist - and Holocaust Denier, now widely considered an antisemite and a racist who promotes neo-Nazism.

I don't discount reading anything by any author / "historian" on the subjects of WW1 & WW2 , esp. on the subject of the Hess flight to Scotland.

I once had a quick flip through this A level primer , OK I suppose for a 1/2" thick book but a bit too sanitized IMHO

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heinemann-Advanced-History-Hitler-State/dp/0435327097

;)

I don't know that I'd agree with something as broad as not discounting 'Anything by any author'.

Irving makes a particularly good example of this as his writings are amongst the most pernicious one may find with ease, and obtain freely (without cost).

Some years ago, I happened to dip into his writings (before I learned who he was), and found I was 'sucked into' his hateful views as I became interested in the way he combined established facts from World War II with carefully crafted revisions of how they combined, and what they meant.

The unusual version of history caught my attention, which is fair enough as we can see in the interesting and at times amusing variation created around he Hess story. But these usually reach the 'alarm bell; stage after a while, as the smell of bull builds up to the stage where one's nose can no longer be ignored. But this is different from someone like Irving, who denies reality, and has an alternate political agenda.

I've also found that there are now increasing numbers of apolitical and educational sites covering the war and events such as the flight.

Granted they may be described as sanitised, but this also means that - provided you already have a wider and more mature background - their content makes a handy reference, and which can be just for neutrality.

There can also be some odd discoveries.

It took me quite a while - a few years ago - to fathom the url of what appeared to be a comprehensive account of World War II...

At the time, I couldn't understand why the creator had not done more to credit the work, but it was accurate, and easy to read, although I could never quote it.

This was, in part, due to my habit of avoiding Wikipedia. Not because their is anything wrong with it (quite the opposite), but because it is an encyclopaedia, a source of reference material, and not the original source. I merely prefer to dig and find the info for myself - even if it turns out to be the same.

For this reason, it was a very long time before I happened to have some content 'memorised' to the extend that I noticed I was reading the same, word for word, when I did turn to Wikipedia for a cross check, and to see if it listed any documented references.

Of course, I now know that what I was looking at was a trick used by SEO (search engine optimisers) to fool search engines into ranking the source domain higher higher in their searches by having good factual content.

In actuality, the site was an American real estate vendor, and had copied thousands of Wikipedia pages into its own domain, in the hope that having all those 'good' pages would make search engines look to it for a result when people searched for real estate for sale in the US.

Happily, this no longer works and is a waste of time and effort, as the search engines rank not only on accuracy now, but also relevance, so there are few Wikipedia pages that will help a real estate agent up the ranks.

If I had such strict scruples , then there would be a few such books I would never have read , for example this on :-

http://www.amazon.com/Walter-Schellenberg/dp/0233002006/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2

While since I read it but ISTR that the Hess flight was mentioned and I found it interesting what he had to say.

At the end of the day it is a matter of balance , whom you believe on the matter ;)

Ye know what folks, I'm just a wee bit afraid to comment on this topic. Now, I wonder, why is that? I have read a lot of  this fellow Irvine's books but not the one about Hess and I have found them all historically accurate as far as my knowledge of WWII is concerned. I have been involved in many discussions for example, with regard to the bombing of Dresden, and I have yet to be convinced his treatment of the topic was inaccurate. I recall no evidence that Irvine promoted neo-Nazism. Why do I have fear of involving myself in this topic?

Am I intimidated by the likes of "He is a well-known Revisionist - and Holocaust Denier, now widely considered an antisemite and a racist who promotes neo-Nazism." ? Yes, I think I am. I think to myself, by disagreeing with this blatant assertion, am I leaving myself open to the same labels which apparently, rightfully and beyond question, belong to David Irvine? Perhaps, but let me state here and now that I know the persecution of the Jewish people in Nazi Germany  actually took place. Does that save me from the nasty labels?

If Irvine doesn't believe that the persecution of the Jewish people in Nazi Germany  actually took place, then that's his right, he needs to be convinced, not out of hand condemned by an unsubstantiated mystical general acceptance. This of course does not deprive him of the ability to write an accurate history of General Rommel, or the bombing of Dresden... or does it? I read both of those historical books and I found them well written, easy to read, and exceptionally accurate on the basis of my own knowledge of these two WWII events.

Yes, what I have written here, I have written with a measure of fear. A fear that stems from a feeling of disagreeing with a yet-to-be-established majority. Over and above that, what I have written really doesn't have much to do with Scotland.

And Dugald steps in to prove just how dangerous a Revisionist like Irving is (weaving his ideas through the known facts, but interpreting them to suit his various prejudiced views).

Irving is not being "condemned by unsubstantiated mystical general acceptance".

Publishers will not accept his writing for publication he is so discredited.

Where does one start?

You mention Dresden - Irving claimed the dead in Dresden numbered 100,000-250,000. A number now set at 25,000-35,000. He eventually conceded, and revealed he had based his figure on propaganda issued by Goebbels.

In 1983, he said the (later to be proven a hoax) 'Hitler Diaries' were fake, then decided to endorse them as real, then changed to say they were fake. Take your pick.

He lost a libel case (1996) against Penguin and Lipstadt - he claimed he had been libeled under the grounds that Lipstadt had called him a Holocaust denier when in his opinion there was no Holocaust to deny, and suggested that he had falsified evidence or deliberately misinterpreted it. Penguin et al were awarded costs, landing him with a bill of £2 million, and was eventually made bankrupt in 2002 for not paying.

In 1989, he a pamphlet in England, stating that there was no mass murder via gas chambers at the Auschwitz. He said the gas chambers at Auschwitz were a hoax, and that he: "has placed himself at the head of a growing band of historians, worldwide, who are now sceptical of the claim that at Auschwitz and other camps were 'factories of death', in which millions of innocent people were systematically gassed to death". He went on to write: "now he is saying the same thing about the infamous 'gas chambers' of Auschwitz, Treblinka and Majdanek. They did not exist – ever – except perhaps as the brainchild of Britain's brilliant wartime Psychological Warfare Executive", and that: "the survivors of Auschwitz are themselves testimony to the absence of an extermination programme".

In a speech made in 1990, he stated: "I say the following thing: there were no gas chambers in Auschwitz. There have been only mock-ups built by the Poles in the years after the war".

In 1992, a German court found him guilty of Holocaust denial under the Auschwitzlüge section of the law against Volksverhetzung. He was then barred from entering Germany, and the governments of Austria, Italy, and Canada, did the same, with Canada arresting him in 1992 and deporting him back to England.

His integrity was demonstrated after his arrest by Austrian police in 2005. He was given 3 years for denial under law prohibiting National Socialist activities (Verbotsgesetz). His plea in this case included a statement that he no longer claimed the Holocaust did not take place and that: "The Nazis did murder millions of Jews". As soon as he was released and deported to England in 2006, he immediately reaffirmed his position off Austrian soil, and stated that he felt "no need any longer to show remorse" for his Holocaust views".

This material appeared on TV news as it happened, so is hardly 'mystical'.

I could go on and on. That's only a fraction of his life story in the land of denial.

The only thing you have to fear in here is that someone might not let you make an assertion like:

"condemned by unsubstantiated mystical general acceptance"

And go unchallenged with no public records and accounts being called up to refute it.

:)

I think we all know where this research by Apollo is revolving around (Dungavel Estate - Emergency landing ground) - so I hope it goes well.  It should be based on the exact mark of Messerschmitt Bf-110 because in all probability there were different flying surfaces, minor change to such as flaps could make a big difference to required distance. This assumes the intention of Hess was to land there , and also intended to take off again rather than just a early aircraft carrier style controlled crash landing with just a possibility of taking off again.

ISTR the Hamilton residence at Dungavel was a military hospital , also under this cover it was also a secret squirrel drey     ;)

Is there any known mapping of exactly the location of the emergency landing ground at Dungavel from RAF records , or was that a secret about Scotland  ?

Further :-

There needs to be more research around this "emergency landing strip" using RAF records , however there will be many records "lost" after 65 years - or are they still listed as TOP SECRET ?

I am certain all this is on Secret Scotland somewhere , and the source material is a Scottish Newspaper :-

http://reocities.com/capitolhill/congress/2106/hess/herald02.htm

QUOTE.

The authors have interviewed a woman who served with the ATS and was at Dungavel on the night of May 10, 1941. She claims the landing lights at the Dungavel airstrip were switched on, ready to receive an incoming aircraft, but later switched off.

:)

Are you able to confirm this is the EXACT location , when next in area - I for one would like to view it ;)

http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/search_map/scotland.php?kmlurl=L2ttbC9pbmRleC5waHA/YWN0aW9uPXRfYyZ0eXBlPWl0ZW0mY2FjaGVfbmFtZT1SQ0FITVMxODYzNDk=

I have looked at a number of maps, but being a military field, and grass, there is nothing.

As you say, Dungavel would really have been a 'carrier landing', to avoid being shot down :o

Unless the story about a peace deal was true - rather than Hess being deluded - he would not have have any need to take off again.

This, without any data, I am sure would not have been possible from Dungavel.

But, as a tail-dragger, this is all a bit academic, as these could operate from any suitably flat field.

The significance of an emergency landing ground was that it was a known safe location, and had facilities on hand if needed. Access would also have been planned for vehicles and personnel.

Just eyeballing a field has the distinct disadvantage that such things as fences and wires are invisible from altitude, and when seen on final approach - well, it's too late to do a missed approach and try again. Ditto for holes and rocks - once these become visible, it's mitigation, not avoidance.

When flying, you have to have one eye out for a landing spot if the engine fails, and as most modern news stories tell us, these landings often end in disaster, even in 'open' country - and that's usually just in a small private plane.

I'm not researching this, and was about to have this thread deleted (as per note at start) but I guess I will have to withdraw that now, as it has generated some interest :B

Sorry, just saw the location.

Can only assume the location is generally correct in as much as it is Dungavel, but not that the runway area lay under the marker given in the link.

Unless there are military records to be had somewhere - not something I know about - there may not be a better location of the actual area that would have been set out as a runway.

There may be evidence there, as there are a number of references to runway lighting being switched on, so that implies wiring, and that might have been buried - with the light.

But many wartime runways (non-permanent) were merely marked by oil lamps.

"And Dugald steps in to prove just how dangerous a Revisionist like Irving is (weaving his ideas through the known facts, but interpreting them to suit his various prejudiced views)."
I have a problem with this opening sentence of your reply Apollo. In the bracketed clauses I don't know who is being mocked: who is the person represented by the possessive pronoun "his"; is it this fellow Dugald, or this fellow Irving, in the introductory clause? Am I weaving my ideas through known facts, or is it Irving who is weaving his ideas through known facts? I guess it must be me since I am supposedly the one who proves the apparent success of Irving nasty behavior. So I'll assume I'm weaving my ideas through known facts. But, jist a wee minute Mister, the only known fact I used in my Reply # 62 was, "I know the persecution of the Jewish people in Nazi Germany actually took place.". What idea, pray tell, am I weaving though this known fact? Nah, Apollo, I don't think I can be used to prove just how dangerous Irving is; geez, I didn't even know how to spell his name till I read this thread. Oh, and I am not prejudiced.

' "Irving is not being "condemned by unsubstantiated mystical general acceptance".'
I find it very hard to believe publishers will not accept Irving's writing for publication because he is so discredited. No, I'll go further here... I just don't believe it. It's a sweeping statement, and I wonder who or what method was used to establish this as factual. Is it because of the information obtained from "http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Hess/" where Irving apparently said: "...and I -- pondered the mystery of why no US publisher had offered for my Hess: The Missing Years."? The fact that one can download copies of this book at no cost hardly constitutes proof that  no one will publish his writing in general.

With regard to Dresden's deaths being between 100,000-250,000, was Irving's estimate any less accurate than  others? This estimate was quite acceptable to high ranking American officers. Why do you use his varying estimates disparagingly with the likes of " He eventually conceded". The others eventually conceded too! Good heavens man, most people amended their estimates. There is nothing wrong with that, it's quite normal. I believe about 100,000 died... but let me impress upon you here, that I'm including those who were killed in the American strafing which took place next day while the refugees were leaving the city (no, no, not based on that 'nut-case' Kurt Vonnegut's claim but rather, on eyewitness accounts... Yes, this is a bit catty).

Yes, Irving endorsed the fake Hitler diaries, and so did the distinguished British historian, Trevor Ropper. Irving was also one of the first to expose the diaries as a hoax. And yes, he did change his mind as a result of further investigation, just as any historian would do when some fact was shown to be a fake.

Yes, he lost his trial in the Lipstadt affair. This libel suit of course was just about the nuttiest thing Irving ever did. Imagine undertaking a libel suit against one such as Lipstadt, in America! Man, that's like undertaking a libel suit against the Celtic F.C. in a Parkhead court room! I hope he never paid  his $2,000,000.

It seems Irving wrote a pamphlet 22 years ago claiming there had been no mass murder about 50 years ago at a places called Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Majdanek. Well, that's what he thinks, or at least believed at that time. It's nothing but an opinion of something he believed. If I disagree with him, so what, does this deprive him of his right to an opinion? Geez, this guy hasn't killed anyone or robbed any bank or done any harm to any person; all he has done is express an opinion, and it matters not one hoot if it's wrong and he refuses to recant or indeed even if he does recant. As regards his so-called "Psychological Warfare Executive" and "testimony" claims; again, nothing more than opinions.

Yes, Irving was deported back to England, I recall the event quite well. A German fellow called Zundell, with whom Irving was associated, was also deported back home. Canada has "hate" laws and I think they were used to get rid of Irving and Zundell. I don't know if the Jewish Defence League or some such thing had something to do with this, but I do recall they attacked Zundell physically outside the couurtroom when Zundell was being tried... I recall it because the attack had been viewed on TV.

Who established the laws under which Irving has been vilified and deported? Were "hate" laws established by national votes, or were they simply introduced by a government? I don't know, but I do not recall ever having had such a vote in Canada. The fact that these laws were established willy nilly, leads me to believe the so-called general acceptance is to me somewhat "mystical".

You see Apollo, you end your reply with the very thing which instills fear in me... a threat! So let me state here unequivocally, that I am not, nor ever have been, a believer in the same hard-to-define-racial-beliefs of the author David Irving.

The problem with the location in the link given above for the Dungavel airstrip location is that it is on the top of a small rounded hill surrounded by mature trees, which are these on pre WW2 maps, so it must have been somewhere else. However there is some good flat unobstructed land about 600m to the west. A good candidate for the location would have been parallel to the B745 road at that point, 1000m of perfectly flat unobstructed ground, except for the fact that this would be almost at right angles to the prevailing wind, which could have caused problems. However there seems to be enough flat land at right angles to the road for a shorter strip.
What may or may not be significant is the remains of a Nissen hut, now in a very sorry state, nearby, but that could have been bought by the farmer and moved there after the war.

http://g.co/maps/wtdrd

The RCAHMS site says that on a visit, no trace of the airfield could be found.

http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/186349/details/dungavel+airfield/

Thanks to Google this would be my first choice - to the frontage of the residence ,  however I would like to make a site visit to consider all aspects (the problem being the clutter because of the present usage of Dungavel Shooting Lodge).

The airfield is described with photograph  :-

http://www.s1strathaven.com/memories/rudolf-hess-flight-to-strathaven---70-years-on----1.html

It shows a small brick  "outhouse"  - the small attachment near to it seems something to do with a sewage septic tank , possibly for the big house  ?

This is better viewed using Google mapping  "Streetview".

It seems also used for glider training ?

Sould be no big problem getting a certain fix on the location

;)

Now - the other point of interest I have noted forom Googling is that Dungavel was in fact a Red Cross Hospital, if it were flying the red cross - then it would probably have Red Cross "soverign state" international accepted status.
If Hess had landed there - then arguably he would not have been landing on Scottish or British territory

;D

With no intent to be negatively critical of J Guy, who carried out most of the visits mentioned in RCAHMS reports, I spoke to them, and they told me he just did this out of interest, and did not have a great deal of time to spend on any one site, so reports are not detailed. This means the reports are basically of what could be seen by eye, and not usually of anything that needed to be looked for.

This came to light when I asked about things I found only feet away from reported objects, but which were not mentioned in RCAHMS.

In other words - don't treat the reports as definitive or detailed. There could be a lot more (doesn't mean there actually is though, unfortunately :( )

The Strathaven article has a month but no date - so we have to assume the 70 year reference it uses makes it a 2011 article.

It also refers to Hess landing.

Hess did not land, His aircraft crashed, and he arrived by parachute - separate from the aircraft.

The image described as the airfield is copyright John Harris, so we can probably also assume that has come from his 2010 book.

Any source on the law regarding the Red Cross 'sovereign state' reference?

Sounds like something that would be problematic if an airfield on the same property was a military facility - ie an RAF officially designated emergency airfield.

I suspect hat could nullify such status if it existed.

Really frustrating versions of The Citizen article, with the Strathaven item.

It is quite long and detailed, but the quality of the image is just bad enough to make it just readable with a lot of effort.

Under the signatories of the  Geneva Conventions then the Red Cross would give neutral ground protective status.

Use of the Red Cross Flag / sign / insignia , needs approval of the Red Cross  (I know of one case in the UK where the Red Cross took effective action).   The ICRC have always been adament that they have the sole rights.

From Wiki  ,     sorted post war , regarding Switzerland

Legal status

ICRC is the only institution explicitly named under International Humanitarian Law (IHL) as a controlling authority. The legal mandate of the ICRC stems from the four Geneva Conventions of 1949, as well as its own Statutes. The ICRC also undertakes tasks that are not specifically mandated by law, such as visiting political prisoners outside of conflict and providing relief in natural disasters.

The ICRC is a private association registered in Switzerland that has enjoyed various degrees of special privileges and legal immunities within the territory of Switzerland for many years[when?] and those are described[by whom?] as amounting to de facto sovereignty. On 19 March 1993, a legal foundation for this special treatment was created by a formal agreement between the Swiss government and the ICRC. This agreement protects the full sanctity of all ICRC property in Switzerland including its headquarters and archive, grants members and staff legal immunity, exempts the ICRC from all taxes and fees, guarantees the protected and duty-free transfer of goods, services, and money, provides the ICRC with secure communication privileges at the same level as foreign embassies, and simplifies Committee travel in and out of Switzerland. On the other hand Switzerland does not recognize ICRC issued passports.[16]

Contrary to popular belief, the ICRC is not a sovereign entity like the Sovereign Military Order of Malta and also it is not an international organization, neither of non-governmental nor of governmental type. The ICRC limits its membership to Swiss nationals only, and also unlike most NGOs[citation needed] it does not have a policy of open and unrestricted membership for individuals as its new members are selected by the Committee itself (a process called cooptation). However, since the early 1990s, the ICRC employs persons from all over the world to serve in its field mission and at Headquarters. In 2007, almost half of ICRC staff was non-Swiss. The ICRC has special privileges and legal immunities in many countries,[which?] based on national law in these countries, based on agreements between the ICRC and the respective governments, or, in some cases, based on international jurisprudence (such as the right of ICRC delegates not to bear witness in front of international tribunals).

I suppose , to display a Red Cross / Cresent on a hospital ship is effectively - de facto sovereignty inside or outside of territorial waters, the same argument is valid for a hospital on land with Red Cross / Cresent flying on the property -  the deeds / registration would deliniate the actual property covered by the flying of the flag

IMHO

:-/

We could wander off on a tangent, but I think this means there is no real sovereign status, legal, or diplomatic status or protection for somewhere - or something - flying a red cross.

The are agreements and recognitions between parties, which are tolerated on the basis of "We better not blow up the red cross area, because we might want its protection one day". It also creates an incentive not to fight (in time of war) under a false red cross flag. Although my memory fails me for the detail, I recently came across a British operation where the forces did fly the red cross as a subterfuge. This one stuck in my mind as no analysis of this move was made later.

Perhaps the Highway Code is analogous - of itself, one cannot be arrested, prosecuted, fined, or whatever for failing to observe the Highway code, but it collects references to legislation in one place, so failing to observe it can be detrimental if you do commit an offence, and have not observed the content of the Highway Code.

I doubt the deeds would come into it - the flag would be flown on a ship, so it's the hospital ship and not the waters it that are being declared.

By the same logic, I would suggest troops on land might spare a building flying a red cross (or whatever now that we have to be PC :B ), but anything around it would still be fair game.

For example, an RAF airfield could have a hospital inside its perimeter, flying the flag, but I doubt that would stop an enemy shelling the runway, dispersal area, hangars, or workshops, or machine gunning any personnel wandering around.

It also depends on the parties having signed the Convention.

During the war, Germany and Russia were not signatories from the beginning, and the troops freely committed atrocities.

Even after signing up (to gain protection) some factions still refused to accept or recognise it, and carried on regardless.

The relevance of noting this is that if they have not signed, they cannot be brought to account later for breaking the convention's rules - a contract (which is what it basically is) needs two willing parties, regardless of how horrendous their actions may have been - and an alternative case has to be brought against these groups. For example, war crimes, which are based in law, not mutual and consensual agreement.

Interesting :)

Quoted from FordPerfect

Sould be no big problem getting a certain fix on the location

;)

Since nobody else has done this, I have added a confirmation of the RCAHMS marker to the map on the Secret Scotland - Rudolf Hess Flight page.

This came from the photograph by John Harris which was included in the Strathaven article offered above, and was easily found using the satellite view.

So it may not have been the obvious place for this airfield, but with two independent pieces of info that turn out to place it in the same location, it's hard to discredit this field as the site of the airfield and therefore grass strip.

Somebody else can measure it ;)

Quoted from Apollo

A slightly odd request compared the usual...

Does anyone have access to flight specs for wartime aircraft?

I can find design specs online with no bother, but information for pilots and flying the things seems rather sparse.

I am currently failing to locate an online source for the take-off and landing requirements for some aircraft.

I am looking for the minimum runway lengths required to operate the Bristol Blenheim, and the Messerschmitt Bf-110.

So far, all I can find online for these (and just about anything else is the aircraft spec ie engines, power, wingspan, length etc etc, which is useless for flight planning.

Well, not useless, but when you're looking for somewhere to set down, none of that matters (since you could be coming in dead stick).

==================

So - to return to this aspect,,

I am having a re-read of this book :-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flight-Rudolf-Hess-Myths-Reality/dp/0750947578/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c

Claimed as one of the more objective books on the subject,  in fact has a Introduction by The Duke of Hamilton.

I don't know if the paperback version page numbers are same as hard-back , but here goes.

Page 36  confirms the Messerschmitt  Augsburg-Haunstretten factory landing strip was used by Hess & this was the Air Testing facility also.

Page 52  -  machine turned to taxi to the end of the grass runway which at Augsburg-Haunstretten was  1,100m and 50m wide.

Page 53 -  (Hess take-off,  final - to Scotland)   -  the run itself was quite lengthy

Page 57  -  mention of Dungavel House

Page 66  -  he made a minor alteration to course and about  22.45 passed very close to Dungavel House.     There was a very small and sloping grass airfield at Dungavel House, privately owned but unused since the beginning of the war.
When in use , had been suitable for light bi-planes but it was certainly inadequate for a heavy aircraft such as a Messershmidt Bf110.  It is not clear whether Hess intended to attempt a crash landing there or bale out over the sea.  In any event he failed to recognize either Dungavel House or the little airfield in the late twilight and decided to climb & continue west ---

==================

Well  IMHO  a runway of 1,100m length ,  this is not a long runway , particular for testing aircraft straight from the production line or for emergency landings.

-  the run itself was quite lengthy (but obviously under 1,100 m)

-  ref. to Dungavel landing strip  -  as being very small and sloping   (we have firmly identified the landing strip  -  this is not a small area of grass)  more like Russian Steppe  !

-  was Dungavel landing strip  "certainly inadequate" for a heavy aircraft such as a messerschmitte  Bf110 ,  as stated on Page 66

IMHO  -  the authers were shown a incorrect area of ground claimed to be the landing strip and accepted this as fact.  Or  - they never investigated and made a definative position of the air-strip in the first instance !!

-      Also  to claim that the range of Bf110  escort fighter/ fighter bomber/night fighter range to be a HEAVY aircraft is total folly.

The most basic search using Google shows  the  Bf110G-4 varient    as   4975kg   (max. loaded  9888kg)

A Hawker Hurricane 2b weighing in at  7244 pounds (standard loaded  =  3285kg
Needing 400 yards take-off to 50ft  /  landing run  225 yards

A Supermarine Spitfire  Mk.V111  weighing in at 5190 lbs empty = 2354kg   /   Loaded  7990 lbs  =  3624 kg

----

It seems to me that the lengthened Hess version Bf110  would be able to land no problem at Dungavel House , if his tanks had been re-filled - then he would have taken off from Dungavel House no problems , but having dropped his drop-tanks - how far he could have travelled is another matter

;)

Appreciate the reading, and the thoughts.

In light of the mention of an 1,100 metre runway at Augsburg, rather than try and measure what sort of runway length could have been provided at Dungave House, I simply tried placing a 1,100 metre line (suitably oriented) on the field where the runway has been identified.

Even without infringing on the contour lines that show the steepest part of this land, to the west, it is easy to show that a grass runway similar to Augsburg was available and reasonably level, and that means a Bf-110 could easily have been accommodated if required. And this becomes even easier when considered that it would not have been carrying any excess weight, other than the pilot.

And a bit of a slope is not a problem, so long as it's not excessive, AND the wind is blowing the right way!

A number of British wartime airfields were constructed on sites where both of these requirements applied - and the number of crashes reflected the problems of trying to operate from such a site, where flights had to be made regardless of the wind. Such airfields were generally abandoned after a while - wonder why?

Anyone can try this using the MAGIC map, which is presumably quite reliable, should they have any issues of conscience or similar with using Google or Bing mapping, or doubts their accuracy (but they come up with the same).

Just for discussion, Hess would not have needed drop-tanks if he had wanted to go back, since he only had to make it as far as German occupied territory, then could have ditched or parachuted, rather than finding a field, but I doubt this would have been necessary had the 'mission' been official, as he would only have been returning if it was successful. With no peace deal secured, I doubt the British would have let him go had the proposal been rejected, and he would have been given 'free room and board thereafter'.

Had the talks succeeded, then he would have been free to travel home safely by whatever means he wished, courtesy of Germany's newest ally :)

(I'm not suggesting any sort of officially sanctioned mission, or supporting the idea, merely reflecting on the practicality of a return flight.)

;)

What a fantastic thread to have survived for nearly 6 years and have over 6500 views.

I spent some time back in the 80's researching what I could in answer to the question - 'What was the true identity of Prisoner Nr 7 in Spandau?'

I'm inclined to believe Dr Hugh Thomas, that it wasn't Rudolf Hess at all.

It may well have been Hess, and not Hauptman Albert Horn, who landed / crashed / baled out, but the man who was tried, jailed and eventually hung himself, is unlikely to have been Hess.

A lot of secret files yet to be revealed I think.

And - yet more revelations ;)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2126602/Rudolph-Hess-believed-Jews-hypnotised-Churchill-according-Nazis-psychiatric-records.html

Courtesy of the DM :B

Of course comments on such articles always bring out the loony brigade.

"This is silly. They didn't hypnotise churchill, or bush or obama, or anyone. They don't need to. Control a country's finances, and you control the country. No need for mumbo-jumbo like hypnosis."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2126602/Rudolph-Hess-believed-Jews-hypnotised-Churchill-according-Nazis-psychiatric-records.html#ixzz1rTSFaHVu

Busy weekend for Rudolph Hess revelations , now the BBC ;D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17588632

Anyone reading this should study alongside the book, that mentions private in great detail - more so than the BBC (book being free on the internet by David Stirling) , a few months ago Apollo did not like me mentioning this book & the denier author :o

Start at page 114

http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Hess/index.html

;)

WARNING ,, my last posting has been got at , I am unable to use the Modify facility to correct.

Conspiracy or what   :-/

NB.  the part :-

that mentions private in great detail

The actual word  "private"  - this is not mine , I used the word private ,  possibly I should have used  Dr. Henry private.

Seems to be the anti-obscenity filter ,  Appolo will reveal all    :)

I had been reading the 'Hess' story a couple of days ago and someone had asked for details on a Bf110 and Blenheim landing distances. Couldn't find the request again.
From my Janes 1942 which I have dug out,  a Bf 110c range is given as 1100kms (2.4hrs) max landing weight 6750kms no landing distance quoted. ( this range would be the 'return range' one way would be at least double.
(Hess flew a bf110D which had extended range with wing drop tanks or a belly drop tank)
Blenheim 1 take off was 271m, landing 333m with brakes, speed 81kph
Weight 8100kms empty
In regard to the ten year old witness, do not write him off. These were strange times and odd events tend to stay in young minds.
I witnessed a German plane flying low, followed by at least three spitfires flying South between Haughhead Bridge and Blantryeferme on a fine evening and I was only four! We were chased into the house to shelter under a table set up in our lobby as a safe refuge during raids as our house regularly received  sharpnel hits from the guns directly across the river. From my father ( policeman) I was always lead to believe that this was Hess heading towards his eventuall crash.
Raids usually came during the night with planes following the river to Glasgow.
Those of you who did not grow up during wartime, probably don't appreciate how these events stay in younger minds. Even although we played as kids we seemed to know that life was very serious. Kids learned quickly about weapons/planes/tanks etc. I had wooden plane models made by POWs and a regular entertainment was watching the army at their war games.
Hess probably used the Clyde as a turning point to head South and crash landed either out of fuel or tired from a +4 hour flight being chased by RAF. Parachuting, especially first time, would have been a last resort, and he would have needed to climb for a safe jump height and time to struggle out.
There were people who wanted to explore peace proposals,  with the war setbacks Britain was alone, and virtually bankrupt having spent all its funds in USA. American aircraft companies used that money to build their new large factories which eventually helped to win the the supply war! Only Churchhill and a few others stood absolutely firm.

When I first came across this site I did wonder why people found old AA batteries etc of any interest. My initial interest was because I grew up in the Clydeside area and the various discussions activated long forgotten memories.
I have now caught the 'Hess' bug!
And boy is there such a massive store of information on the web about Hess and I have only scratched the surface.
There is the newsreel interview of the farmer who first met him, the RAF map of his flight track, RAF reports of fighter interceptions (and recall), Government letters and reports, enough to keep me occupied for years!
However, one day perhaps, the whole true story will emerge, the regret is that everyone who had anything to do with him or the flight incident will be long dead.
My precise of the event:- ( based on many books particularly current releases)
There was a British 'peace group' at that time, formed by anti-Churchill types and those with money/power to lose.
Hamilton was involved either as Secret Service bait or if privately, quickly backed out as it would have been treason as a serving RAF officer.
Hitler did want to end the western front to allow free rein to Russia.
Hess was no fool, educated, good pilot, long time confident/friend of Hitler, admirer of Britain.
The Bf 110 he flew was a brand new aircraft, not even alloted to a squadron, someone high up had to have given permission to use it.
He flew a track designed to avoid the main interception defences of the English East coast, ( probably the German ones as well) and although flew almost direct to Hamilton's he appears to have got disoriented at the last leg.
His track shows a Northernly heading over Blantyre but I definately seen my aircraft heading very low, southwards following the Clyde. I know , only just over four at the time but we played at being fighter pilots all day right up to dusk!
He was tailed by 602 Sqd. Spitfires, reported as two aircraft one flown by the ace S/Ldr Al Deere! ( Hess was lucky as Al Deere scored four 109s in August 41, three on same day when 602 returned to front line and Hess would have been a sitting duck to him.
Apparently Hess did parachute out. Although there is one report his plane crash landed. One would have thought his plane would have been more damaged crashing from parachute height even if expertly trimmed. The tail/fusilage section may still be on display somewhere, (Hendon?)
So you all have ignited my flying interest, probably will be making models again soon although they are mostly plastic these days.

IMHO  -  you are up to speed until you get to aircraft interception.  Likewise Hess was probably up to speed until he could not find the landing field lights.

Hess would be well aware of RAF night / all-weather fighter capabilities , he would know he had little to fear unless he had a Hurricane with Karel  Kuttelwascher DFC on to him   ;D    That would be so slim a chance over Scotland - Hess would discount the possibility.

My understanding is that Hess would first be detected over the North Sea by Ottercops Moss , by the time this was plotted by Ouston and a fighter vectored in , Royol Observer Corp info. plotted ,  control handed to Scotland - then the situation would be a bit time handicapped and events overtaken by the actions taken by Hess.  Hess had a excellent flying record - but not one involving baling out , the situation for Hess at that stage must have been very grim - he was out of options & thinking time..

The only possibility of shooting Hess down would be if a Bristol Beaufighter was lurking that was equipped with radar interdiction and a observer / operator who was competent  (IIRC that would be several months later over such as Malta).  Possibly a Blenheim with similar equipment could have done the job if Hess was caught throttled back searching for his landing ground..

;)

Would there have been any landing lights?

Would the Duke of Hamilton have known he was coming?

How would they have communicated to set up such a meeting?

Since the Bf110 was a 2 seater fighter, what was the role of the second crew member and could the plane be comptently flown by one person?

1.   Would there have been any landing lights?

To attempt such a flight without assurance of a lit landing field ,  apparently the one error (using central european time) with the navigation flight plan involved Hess "stacking" over the North Sea for a considerable time.   - his pre-planned  eta ,  a pilot would have to be mad to try without landing lights esp. with N.E. & Scotch mist   ;)

===

2.  Would the Duke of Hamilton  have known he was coming?

Dunno ,  I was born 1950 without good connections   ;)

===

3.  How would they have communicated to set up such a meeting?

IMHO   ,  those with good hereditary wealth (not all of them still resident in U.K.  BUT it is known some still took vacations there)  would still have good access to such as Portugal or Spain ,  I suppose this raises the question - why did Hess fly to Scotland , he could have used a number of means to get to Portugal or Spain - or other suitable places.  I suppose he was mad to fly to Scotland..

===

4.  Since the Bf110 was a 2 seater fighter, what was the role of the second crew member and could the plane be comptently flown by one person?

Apparently , after being turned away by other German manufacturers  -  Wilhelm Emil "Willy" Messerschmitt   ,  allocated the plane that crashed (or landed in a unfortunate manner) in Scotland and made whatever modifications that Hess requested,  test flights being made over several months.

;)

"4. Since the Bf110 was a 2 seater fighter, what was the role of the second crew member and could the plane be comptently flown by one person?"

Further to your Question #4 above, FordPrefect, I don't know what the second crew member of the Bf110 was responsible for, but the second crew member of the Canadian CF-100, two-crew fighter, was responsible for the guns and rockets firing and radar control. CF-100 was built during the early fifties.

"4.  Since the Bf110 was a 2 seater fighter, what was the role of the second crew member and could the plane be comptently flown by one person?"

-----

I suppose the Bf110 crew could scramble about in the cockpit.

I don't know but a bit of research on the internet may soon determine (so many role , so many Mk. - as with British WW2 aircraft).  As we know the Germans were very cleaver at hiding their beam following electronics amongs the standard radio coms.  I would think the wreckage was well plotted before any experts had a good examination.  From all I have read from the better German sources - the Hess Bf110 was adapted for a single person - so Hess would have been well stressed with piloting,navigation, moving fuel around.  The Blenheim Nightfighter version was at a bit of a disadvantage as the Observer/ radar expert was in his own cab at the rear of the pilot (he would also have the Gunner badge)  There would also be a Gunner .  The Beufighter Nightfighter had a crew of two,  IIRC this would be pilot &  Navigator / radar expert who was right next to the pilot. The Navigator would be trained in night emergency / fogged up  landing procedures and would have had some early pilot training.  I would expect the Luftwaffe would have had similar "multi-skilling"  training - depending on requirements.

My understanding is that Hess , dived from over the North Sea to come in low and fast to get under the radar, I suppose he would know there would be fighter patrols further south over Tyneside/Wearside , also approaching Clyde-side - there would be standing patrols.  Apparently caught out at his turning point over the North Sea (too light as the research he used was in central european time) - he stooged for abt. 1 hour ,  was a weather expert having received the very latest (from Condor over the Atlantic) German weather reports for a long period prior  The Observer Corp hearing / sighting times are in the public domain and apparently the,  B f 110 crashed at 23.09 hours.  What sort of ambient light do you expect at 11 pm on a May summer evening  ?     How well were the exhaust stubs shielded against being seen from a British nightfighter,  I once read that German nightime bombing losses around May 1941 were only 2% (that was in a bomber stream of hundreds of aircraft).  IMHO  , he had worked to a very tight landing window , ran out of fuel circling where he expected / was assured would be landing lights.  To dawdle until bailing out time - he had never considered the possibility of landing on any of the many RAF landing fields that he would have marked on his map - quite the opposite.  To set out on such a trip , he must have trusted somebody at the Scottish end - otherwise he was totally mad    ;D

I hope I have not stirred up a hornet's nest.
Anyway to try and answer some of the comments:-

Bf 110C had a threeman crew for what is now known as fighter bomber duty and a two man crew for fighter escort duty.
Pilot/radio operator navigator/rear gunner for the FB duty
Pilot/rear gunner for FE duty
Like all similar two engined aircraft at that time the 110 was originally designed as a fighter but the spitfire/hurricane/109 singe seater types quicky made it obsolete as a fighter.
Later models such as the Mosquito and P38 Lightning excelled in the FB/F duties in certain situations.
So Hess was quite capable to fly alone in daylight perhaps using a radio beam as his track shows him flying straight towards Lanarkshire but overshooting and evenually circling Ardrossen to turn back towards the Clyde.
Which happens to be the way that most of the bombers flew for the Clydebankraids!
Hess was clearly tracked most of the way and evenually was lost still heading towards Glasgow, so one can assume to flew lower to map read better in the fading light from the East and to follow the Clyde South.
In May at that latitude, there is a gloaming and with good clear weather, not unusual to last past 20.00hrs. but difficult to fly Eastwards.
In regard to nightfighters, I doubt whether there were any in Scotland at that time, and even in the South they were very ineffective until suitable airborne radar operations were estabished.
The airfield at Hamilton's probably did not have runway lights and even if it did I doubt Hess would have planned a night landing in a 110.
So best senario is, that he got lost , ran out of daylight/ fuel and managed somehow to parachute at a relative low altitude.
RAF records show that they knew the 110 had no chance to escape and deliberatly did not attempt to shoot it down. There is a record that initially, a Defient was vectored to intercept, then the 602 Spits then they were relieved by Hurricanes who probably had difficulty in the fading light as well.
In regard to peace overtures between Britain and Germany try to find reading material on the political scene of the times but be warned-very dry reading!
Got to go the rugby has started!

Right - my only interest is for the "Real Truth" of this Hess flight to Scotland is determined , in particular the preparations needed for the aircraft to land , re-fuel and take-off again as I doubt he had no intention to stay unless he was in fact mad (I do not rule out the possibility of having high intelligence but lacking in all common sence) or just mad in a certain way.  Unfortunately everything is loaded with official propaganda and conspiracy theories, not helped my most people being involved now dead.  Bystanders - consider anthing as heresay.

I suppose Hess could have easy just tagged on to a German bomber stream that was attacking Clyde-side , however I understand these left bases on French soil and travelled  up the Irish Sea ?

For research , we are left only with the technical aspects of aircraft involved at the time-line, RAF facilities available in Northern England and Scotland. Ground , ground-mobile and aircraft radar.  Luftwaffe raid procedures & Observer Corp records can probably be considered 98% accurate.  To previously gather all this info. from books, check for accurace , double-double check was time consuming and expensive.  Now with the aid of Forums and several participants in a thread, Google search - this is convenient, quick and at low cost

I now see this thread further developing as the de facto source of sound info. on the Hess flight , the best discussion of the political aspects of the flight to Scotland will always be conjecture.  Possibly Hess was fooled by a intelligence agency plot, did they expect it to work and made good landing preparations or not ?  To entrap the aircraft a distance where it runs out of fuel with a good possibility of crew parachuting to their death , in particular a person of Hess status makes no sence to me

;)

This is what makes the 'Hess' incident interesting.
The theory that he was enticed to try and and make a truce with Britain via the British secret service has some weight considering the many successes they had during WW2.
Otherwise he was a bit of a fool which some of his nazi mates were after a while.
You have to stay with the facts first before exploring the possibilities of overt operations.
For the record, the Northern raids were from from the Northern European occupied bases, I don't think any raids came up the Irish Sea mainly due to the range/navigation and like the Armada the high risk of being able to return in sufficent numbers to survive.
Hess's flight was during daylight/evening, the bomber raids on Clydebank were at night as by that time the nazi daylight raids were beaten.
Hess expected VIP treatment and acceptance of his peace proposals. A person arriving on spec would normally have behaved differently.
In the political scene, Britain was on is knees, USA was divided on supporting Britain, Germany wanted to destroy Russia, Japan was annoyed with USA sanctions and Churchill was still fighting hie homeland enemies.
There are additional covert theories involving the Duke of Kent, who was known to favour the Germans, and his evenual demise in a Sunderlend crash.
Also, Hess was kept long past all the others in captivity who had prolonged the war, why?

The Me-110 was a 'Zerstorer' (heavy fighter) which became obsolete in that role, though it served well as a night fighter and as ground attack in North Africa. The concept wasn't totally dropped by the Luftwaffe though as Messerchmitt had another try with the Me-210, which failed due to various technical problems and was superseded by the similiar looking 410. By this time it was too late in the war to have much impact.

I need to go to the library to try and find a book I read over 1 year ago, certain it mentioned German night intruders travelling up the Irish Sea to Scotland.

The book was about Boulton Paul Defiants , IIRC somewhere based in Cheshire , and protecting the North West inc. Manchester.  Details of barriage ballons, went into great detail about beacons, box flying & avoidance of AA ground-fire.

Just trawled through the Pen & Sword list of books - can't find it so not one of theirs.

Possibly mentioned about German navigation &  beam flying etc.

Probably very similar operations around Clyde-side     ;)

Found it , probably the best book I have read on the subject :-

http://www.96squadron.org.uk/EOTN.htm

---
Note this , from the above :-

,whether they approached from the East or took advantage of neutral Ireland’s street lights to guide them via the Irish Sea to their intended targets.

:)

Flosue, I find it hard to believe that Hess was enticed by the British secret service into making an effort to bring about a truce with Britain. There was never any doubt Hitler wanted peace with Britain. Even before the war started he stated categorically that he had no wish to go to war against Britain and France. Furthermore, after the 1940 defeat of Britain's B.E,F. in North West Europe he offered peace terms which were very reasonable compared to the post WWI Treaty of Versailles. We might note too for whatever sigbificance it might have, that destroying Britain was not a feature in Mein Kampf.

Clearly, there existed a very strong motive for the Hess flight to Scotland. The idea of peace with the U.K. was not something to which Hess himself was averse, and Hess proved quite clearly that his confidence regarding a successful undertaking of the very dangerous solo flight to Scotland was not misplaced.

One is tempted also, to ask oneself why the British Secret Service would try to lure Hess to Britain. I mean, how much of a contribution to Britain winning the war would the captivity of Hess make... not, as History proved, a sausage! If this idea was on the plate of the British Secret Service, then I believe it was a waste of time.

The Book "The Loneliest Man in the World" by Hess' one time gaoler Eugene K. Bird is probably the best informed writing on Rudolph's motivations for his flight to Scotland.
It's very much worth a read as the author illegally interviewed interviewed the one time Deputy Fuhrer while he was the warden. I bought the book from an auction site and it came unexpectedly with a bag a news clipping from over many years about Hess, his flight and time in Spandau.

Cheers,
Derek.

Quoted from FordPerfect

Found it , probably the best book I have read on the subject :-

http://www.96squadron.org.uk/EOTN.htm

---
Note this , from the above :-

,whether they approached from the East or took advantage of neutral Ireland’s street lights to guide them via the Irish Sea to their intended targets.

:)

Hi,
It is true that Liverpool raids were assisted by the Dublin lights but I have not been able to verify any raids flying North to Scotland up the Irish Sea.
The range, lack of radio beams,fighter bases in  Wales, Nothern Ireland, and Ayrshire would have been very serious deterents to such a flight.
In regard to nightfighters, as i have already stated, they were very primative at that time and only became somewhat effective long after the blitz and were mainly stationed in the South East.
Only two German bombers were shot down during the Clydebank raids by aircraft, none by AA, although as usual there were probably greater losses by engine failure etc.
Of interest, the Germans actually bombed Dublin in error on the 31 May 41, which just shows how difficult it was to accurately identify a target, never mind intercept an single aircraft in cloud/rain etc with a radar cluttered up with false echoes as the early A1 sets often were. Far more British nightfighters were lost than Germans due to weather/landing etc.
I used to have a map of the German radio beam stations but it has got lost , from memory most of the beams originated from Denmark down to the French channel coast and the Brits soon found out ways to 'bend' them. There used to be some good books on the technical radio/radar war. One of the key items was the magnaton valve and actually the boffins had to take  hospital x-ray machines as a temporary solution to fight the radio beams.
What you must remember is that the normal weather conditions play a big part in trying to attain effective bombing, and in fact both the German and Allied airforce records evenually showed how ineffective the early bombing was with the high cost in crew losses.
But all this really has nothing to do with Hess as he flew  across the North Sea direct to Lanarkshire in daylight!

Probably the best book I have read on the subject is RDFI

http://www.marywardbooks.com/books/RDF-I-The-Location-of-Aircraft-by-Radio-Methods-1935-%E2%80%93-1945-by-Michael-Bragg/0953154408.htm

----

Few years since I read this book but I recall it was good , actually - I think I have my own book about R.V. Jones - may be same book or different :-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Most-Secret-Wordsworth-Military-Library/dp/185326699X

----

Watson-Watt etc.

http://www.bawdseyradar.org.uk/history1.htm

;)

There is a map often used in books etc. + web-sites that shows the Hess flight to Scotland (don't know the origins) , with OC times for sound & visual contact & how he supposedly circled over Clyde-side , Ayreshire etc. that was covered with RAF stations & emergency landing grounds , decoys etc. Also did similar over Farne islands & Northumberland coast area that was also well manned by RAF with similar bases.

This one is not so often seen :-

;)

Quoted from Apollo

I wonder if anyone knows of an online video of the interview with ploughman David McLean - this being the interview he gave to the media just after the Hess incident.

This was made available through an online archive run by The Scotsman, but I see that in keeping with what appears to an industry standard 'dirty trick' the site has been re-organised, and all you got when visiting the former web address for this video is a standard page informing you that "The page you are accessing no longer exists and has been moved. Please use the search option to find it."

Or some such nonsense - because I have yet to find a 'lost' page when following that advice, and the search is a waste of time.

They (all of them) should be more honest, and just say they have deleted or removed the pages.

I see the old link to the McLean video now lands on a new 'lifestyle/heritage' page - but a search still doesn't bring up the desired item.

This was the full interview filmed at the time, I think it might even have been mentioned earlier in this thread too, and was a useful reference to see the faces of the people as they gave their accounts at the time of the incident.

It's obviously a handy thing to be able to refer to, so if anyone does come across it, or has a working link, a nod would be appreciated so we can restore it.

Is this the interview you were looking for?

http://www.itnsource.com/en/shotlist/BHC_RTV/1941/05/19/BGU408100027/

Quoted from Admin

This thread is about the Hess flight of 1941.

It is not a portal for introducing modern-day politics, and will simply be removed if this happens.

I am not aware of introducing any political aspects to this thread. Apologies if there were.
However, in regard to the Hess incident, either it was the simple act of a deranged man or a part of a complicated wartime covert operation. There is more than a little evidence of the latter.
Even now, after all these years from the war's end, there are new books etc. appearing almost every month, based on released secret files, personnal diaries and old warriors who find the need to recite their memories. One day the Hess truth will out.
In many cases, these new revelations have completely contradicted earlier myths or shown how fragile the truth can be in the wrong hands. It never fails to amaze me to learn how a minor act can have a major influence on history and even in one's life.
Hess's story is full of contradictions, did he parachute or crash land, who really captured him, did Hitler discuss the trip with him, did his plane have bullet holes in the fusalage as has been reported, why was he kept in captivity far longer than others of greater guilt and so on.
Today, we have the magic of the WWW and other modern tools yet even we are not always party to the whole truth.

Your link does not work.

1. I had to type into the Google search :-

http://www.itnsource.com

2. On the search page , typed the single word HESS & scrolled down to find it , I think this is the one you mean ?

Titled :-

Rudolf Hess's plane crashes in Scotland

SLATE INFORMATION: Further Views on the Topic of Rudolf Hess

SCOTLAND: Dungavel:
EXT

AEROPLANES GERMAN M. E. 110 wreckage used by Hess

DUNGAVIL CASTLE. (Home of Duke of Hamilton). Hess's ...

=======

The interview voice of David McLean is not heavily stilted with speach gaps where he is clearly reading (with difficulty) from prompting boards on a similar newsreel. Also the background photography oin the farm is different.

;)

Quoted from flosue

I am not aware of introducing any political aspects to this thread. Apologies if there were.
However, in regard to the Hess incident, either it was the simple act of a deranged man or a part of a complicated wartime covert operation. There is more than a little evidence of the latter.
Even now, after all these years from the war's end, there are new books etc. appearing almost every month, based on released secret files, personnal diaries and old warriors who find the need to recite their memories. One day the Hess truth will out.
In many cases, these new revelations have completely contradicted earlier myths or shown how fragile the truth can be in the wrong hands. It never fails to amaze me to learn how a minor act can have a major influence on history and even in one's life.
Hess's story is full of contradictions, did he parachute or crash land, who really captured him, did Hitler discuss the trip with him, did his plane have bullet holes in the fusalage as has been reported, why was he kept in captivity far longer than others of greater guilt and so on.
Today, we have the magic of the WWW and other modern tools yet even we are not always party to the whole truth.

==================

It was a post of mine that was banished, I had made comments about the truth of words spoken by a politician of late drawing comparison to the words spoken by politicians in history. Subject involving SIS (Security Intelligence Services) MI5 & MI6 (don't believe anything) ;)

The "Official Newsreel" :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHJRFSTSJOE

Could somebody with IT ability please show this canmore photograph :)

http://www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/community/showthread.php?8241-Dungavel-Aerodrome

Quoted from Deeko

The Book "The Loneliest Man in the World" by Hess' one time gaoler Eugene K. Bird is probably the best informed writing on Rudolph's motivations for his flight to Scotland.
It's very much worth a read as the author illegally interviewed interviewed the one time Deputy Fuhrer while he was the warden. I bought the book from an auction site and it came unexpectedly with a bag a news clipping from over many years about Hess, his flight and time in Spandau.

Cheers,
Derek.

===================

I have not read that book, however I may obtain it   ;)

--

However ,  I would refer you to the following (pages 262 & 263).  NB.   I am quoting from the pages of the Presido  1990  1st Edition Hardback   (there is a later paperback version - that I have not compared it with)

ISBN :0:89141-397-9

QUEST
Searching for Germany's Nazi Past

Melchior and Frank Brandenburg

Presido
------

This book is in fact the research works of a Frank Brandenburg.

Now then - it is interesting  page  Viii  FOREWORD -
that ends with the sentence :-

I know Frank Brandenburg. His was an astonishing adventure. I can vouch for his credibility and support the veracity of his research.

Eugene K. Bird
Col. U.S. Army  (Ret.)
Former U.S Commandant
Spandau Allied Prison
West Berlin
------

So what does the quoted pages have to say by Ilse Hess  (wife of Rudolf Hess)  :-

"Bird !"  Ilse Hess said, The way she spat out the name in her hoarse voice it sounded like a swear word.  "Colonel Bird has said and written much about my husband, most of it more than simply incorrect.  If you rely on what he told you, your research work will be more a fairy tale than history".  She sounded hurt and bitter.  "What Colonal Bird has to say is hardly reliable.  He has not the slightest idea of what my husband was or is, or what he thinks".

=========

So - here we have Bird vouching that Brandenburg had done a good impartial job of going around the upper echelons of Nazi / Ex-Nazi people whilst they were still alive ,  yet Ilse Hess had not a single good word to say for the published works of Eugene K. Bird.

;D

This is one reason why I prefer to read books about Rudolf Hess published no later than the mid-1980's - after that the publishers seem to demand some new unique disclosure (conspiracy theory) , otherwise books sales would very low - hardly worth a paperbook issue to collect the last few coins.

IMHO  - better to stick to established facts (where possible) about the technical aspects of the flight and the aircraft.  We know more or less the date & time to the minute when he first contacted Scottish soil - work either that time/place in history.

I am aware of some monument being erected , damaged/removed from Eaglesham Moor, however - for me it offers absolutely nothing , never been there and don't intend to.  I suppose from the height Hess baled out , it was several factors inc. Newton's law of gravity only that gave fame to Eaglesham

;)

Have you read the account in "Roof Over Britain" HMSO 1943?

I'll have to read the book again as it has no index (!) and I cannot find the section on Hess's flight.

I have not read  - account in "Roof Over Britain" HMSO 1943, or at least I possibly have done but forgotten.

Yes, the book  QUEST ,  I think is very good, as you say - to use for looking back during research it is not easy , you have to use the Intex , the chapter/ sections - they are not listed.

Intersting  1st edition printed 1990 , much of what was written has been re-cycled by other authors with additional conspiracy theories.

The is much written in the book on the subject of the Hess flight to Scotland, in my view not well written as the book does not contain Hess in the title.

In fact , this is a book not to be researched for the odd Hess main hit-points, you need to read the full book again that covers all of the Hess subject. One part is the line of questioning of various peiople about the "Flak Map" and Hess's knowledge of it + the secret codes.

------

There is another book (by the son of Rudolf Hess)

My Father RUDOLF HESS

-  Wolf Rudiger Hess

ISBN  0 491 03772 4  (1986 re-printed version in English) for  W.H. Allen & Co. PLC.

1984 first published in West Germany.

---

Again a good source at a good time in history for writing a Hess book (early 1980's) , I am presently reading this book again from start to finish.

The chapter of the flight is quite short.  I myself treat this part as though the son of Hess is writing from bits picked up and not well researched, (Preface page 6 - Wolf R. Hess states that - In the early 1960s I completed civil engineering studies at the Munich Technical University with distinction,  etc. etc.

So a technical person.

Page 18 + 19 , he states :-

-  and took off.  It was just 17.45 Middle European Time.

The Me 110E-1/N, serial number 3869, in which Rudolf Hess (he does state why in his book he always refers to his father like this)  took off for Great Britain to salvage world peace on this Saturday evening, was a heavy fighter-bomber. With its two reserve tanks, it had a range of  4,200 km or 10 flying hours.  Its two engines totalling  1,400 HP gave the Me 110 a cruising speed of 420 kph.  If nothing intervened, flying time to the Scottish Coast would be about four hours.

Also page 19 , he states that diving towards the coast. This caused the Me 110 to gain so much speed that the two Spitfires which had been chasing him were apparently unable to keep up.  Shortly after 22.00 hrs. ,  at a breathtaking speed of 750 kph, Hess crossed the coast at Farne Islands, etc. etc.Then follows a interesting read of his low level flight (in preparation - in the months leading up to his flight  - apparently Hess at his home had a road map fixed to the wall which he studied repeatedly when he could not sleep.  Use of natural landmarks.

Page 20.  Shortly after  23.00 he was gliding over Dungavel House  .  To rule out any error - it had by then become dark - Hess then flew on for a few minutes to the west coast of Scotland  etc. etc.

Convinced of the accuracy of his navigation, Hess then banked and flew eastwards across Scotland, recognized the railway line with its curve at Dungavel  (I need to check this out on Google earth) etc.    He then spiraled upwards to reach a safe height of 2,000 metres necessary for a parachute jump  etc. etc.

====

Now then ,,  this needs to be checked  -  He does state :-

With its two reserve tanks, it had a range of  4,200 km or  10 flying hours.

So if he had by the time of bale out - the flight time had been say 4 hours approx. at most , then the Me 110 (as he calls it , I understand correctly a  Bf 110 ). Then assuming the fuel was consumed first in the drop-tanks  (I have read in detail in another book about his care taken over the North Sea transferring fuel) , also the tanks were never found in England or Scotland - that I know of).  Quite simply - what I am getting at is this aircraft could have had at least 6 hours flying time left (and that is a lot of fuel).  One would thing that dropping 2 km to earth with a crash the wreckage would have been well incinerated (that it was not).  I have read in a book that there was a oil tank found, at first considered a drop tank but in fact a engine oil tank (they used lots of oil, I seem to remember it was in fact fitted with a extra lub. oil tank & this was it).  I suppose wing or fuslage tanks ruptured if the aeroplane broke up in the air would have spilt fuel.

Anyway - food for thought, and in any case - it seems according to his son , that he had enough fuel to get back to his home base in any case without a top-up, all he would need would be asistance of a single competent aero mechanic or better two to get his props turning again.   I seem to remember in a book a photograph of a Stuka on the eastern front being started by a mechanic using a starting handle.  I wonder what these engines , probably a DB 601 variant (stated by the son of Hess as totalling 1,400 HP) required to start them  ??

;)

Regarding a earlier post :-

I have found that ONLY if I use Internet Explorer as Search Engine and search on 106G_UK_0081, Frame 4466 (4466 is not of Dungavel)

Then I can find two aerial photographs (both dated 10/5/1946), unfortunately you have to subscribe to RCAHMS to use the zoom facility.

Dungaval Training Centre, Avondale, LANARKSHIRE, SCOTLAND, Sortie 106G_UK_0081, Frame 4464
Vertical aerial image taken near Dungaval Training Centre, Avondale, LANARKSHIRE, SCOTLAND. Image taken on 10/05/1946

Dungaval Training Centre, Avondale, LANARKSHIRE, SCOTLAND, Sortie 106G_UK_0081, Frame 4465
Vertical aerial image taken near Dungaval Training Centre, Avondale, LANARKSHIRE, SCOTLAND. Image taken on 10/05/1946

;)

The circle looks the same in both images - same place so it is not a Chinagraph mark on the picture.

Nothing distinctive about it when zoomed in, just a circle.

There is one dark structure which could be a hangar, it has a lighter coloured area which is not the full width on the bottom right. Consistent with the taxiway up to the doors. The bottom left hand side might have a smaller building built up against the main building.

Can't decide if the light area to the right of it is another building or some hardstanding with possibly a light coloured small building on it. There are six smaller structures along the bottom edge of that area, about the right size for Nissen huts (or similar) and another on the Northern edge by the tree line with perhaps a square building near it.

MB

I would like to establish exactly what facilities were available by way of hangars etc. at the Dungavel landing ground at May 19'41 , this is interesting but of course at least 4.1/2 years later in 19'46 when it was being used for cadet glider training.

If you search the internet - there is a copyright 19'46 photograph of a hanger , seems more of civilian box type structure rather than more portable blister type. There is also a interesting photograph of a, by then well obsolete Standard Beaverette that is chopped (as they did) used as tow car.

Title: Dungavel gliding group with glider and storage hangar c1946
Scran ID: 000-000-128-483-C
Resource Rights Holder: J Matheson

;)

That hangar on SCRAN looks a bit like what I see zoomed into the postwar aerial, wide doors on one side of the hangar. I thought it showed a structure to the left but it is the sliding door and you can see a window in side of the hangar. I can see some sort of lattice structure inside the hangar on the left hand side but can't figure out what it is. The hangar and door look like wood panelling.

I have been through the MOD Guide to WWII Hangar Identification but can't pin it down to one of them.

A vehicle like a Beaverette might explain the markings on the ground?

MB

I don't know if it tells you much but here are scans of the Hess Flightt (1943) as promised:-

Bear in mind this was propoganda aimed at increasing the morale of the general public.

Thanks  jmb & The Fox,  the info. adds a little to some area of research.

I am presently reading the book again  My Father Rudolf Hess by Wolf Rudiger Hess.

On page 21 , there is something I have been unable to understand (possibly I need to) , more local knowledge may be able to assist with this.

It seems illogical and out of context with anything preceding on the page or the next page 22.

It could be to do with the original 1984 German text to the 1986 English Edn.  ?

The final para. of page 21 just jumps in  :-

    In a little village south of Glasgow, the well-known and respected engineer Mr Ramsay was out for a walk with his son on this evening in early summer when they heard above them the noise of a strange plane.  Ramsay briefly remarked:  'That's probably Rudolf Hess.'   Scarcely had he uttered these words when he broke off in alarm, and turning to his son he went on, 'Forget what I have just said and talk to no one about it.'  Until his death, Mr Ramsay senior never again mentioned this incident.  5

Now - turning to page  339    NOTES    Part 1  -  The Flight

5    Discussion between Walter Ramsay junior and Wolf Rudiger Hess in February  1976 at Sanna,  North Yemen, HA: see p. 22.

-----

So -  has anybody come across this Mr. Ramsay Snr or Jnr.    I would be interested to know what the specific engineering discipline the well known and respected Mr Ramsay (Snr) was employed in ,  possibly a local Blacksmith / Car Mechanic or I wonder if he was in fact a Aero engine/airframe Fitter    :-/

UPDATE.

Regarding the photograph,,

Dungaval Training Centre, Avondale, LANARKSHIRE, SCOTLAND, Sortie 106G_UK_0081, Frame 4465
Vertical aerial image taken near Dungaval Training Centre, Avondale, LANARKSHIRE, SCOTLAND. Image taken on 10/05/1946

Once you start collating - you find somebody has been there before :-

Note this enlargement and what seems a blister hangar etc.

This photograph is a illustration from the book :-

The Hitler/Hess  Deception by Martin Allen

Note the comments , however the original is dated   10/05/1946  and this is a full 5 years after the Hess flight to Scotland on 10/5/1941.  At least (in conj. with a O.S. map) is does display the considerabler area of the "Emergency Landing Field".

Not so easy 70 years after the event, to determine if these facilities were all there in situ. May 1941.  Possibly some were present but not all ?  The Glider training hanger of boxy construction as seen on the previous photographs does not seem to be there (unless it is what I am considering to be a blister hangar - or is it in fact the big white structure ?).

On the aircraft technical aspects - I do have some "Best Authority" info.  that presently I am comparing against aircraft "Rivet-Counter" definative info. on web-sites.  What I am finding is this - so often a good book (the vast majority) on the subject has the para. or something similar :-

OC Reported :-

"A ME 110, flying at 180 miles per hour, due west", they said recognizing its two engines, the blunt wing tips, the distinctive rudders at its tail.
"Take more water with it", retorted the RAF officer sceptically at the other end of the line.  He knew that no ordinary aeroplane of this type could fly so far from Germany and carry enough fuel to return.

I find it hard to believe that even GD Aircrew from WW2 writing books etc. on this subject to date ,have repeated this total twaddle, they would know the version flying from such as Norway using a big belly tank (dachshund belly) also the availability of wing pylon mounted drop tanks (a pair of which held more than a dachshund and also made the aircraft more aerodynamic).

This type of commentry has been re-cycled so many times - it is like propaganda , say it often enough and the people will believe it is true , clearly this was the type of comment dating from during  WW2 , continued during the 1950's and being repeated onwards to date - it is just not true and never was.

Wolf Rudiger Hess in his book My Father Rudolf Hess , stated what I typed here a few days ago, presently I don't believe he was correct  BUT from my reconer he was very near and may well be correct..   I will soon present what I have found from "Best Authorities" apparently from RAF statement during WW2   BUT  as we know - this was a time for misrepresentation , propaganda + smoke & mirrors

;)

Martin Allen has been discredited as he was found guilty of 'planting' false info to make his book more saleable.
Would be interesting to identify the origin of the airfield photo and date.

Most of the Hess books - the first chapter is the flight , the Martin Allen book - the flight comes in a chapter near the end because as the title  - it is more about the British  "deception" which should not be overlooked.  His "Research" with at times what he does state is his supposition , you can always check his sources with the notes.

I have done a bit of speed-reading , found the page with what he has to say about the Dungavel "Emergency Landing Ground" - this does need more work to investigate if what he says is FACT,  the book I find good but these important points about the flight possibilities do need a double-check..   I WILL PHOTOGRAPH THIS BOOK PAGE AND POST IT UP for your perusal.

His book does use two of the common used map / diagrams for his flight path.  IMHO -  Martin Allen is wrong about the 1 hour holding pattern over the North Sea.  I think this is rubbish about the 2 hours British Summer Time , of course Hess would easily determine what time in Central European Time dusk was in Southern Scotland..   Why would the Luftwaffe or Hess have to involve BST , they would use the Central European Time and in any case he knew what his cruising speed was ,  speed dash under the radar screen , flight time, when he would need to pull the drop tank lever (if he wished to). Total flight time would have been no more than 4 hours.

I have done a few quick checks on flying distances but you can add a few miles as he would have deviated to avoid AA fire until he was over the North Sea.

Augsburg direct to Copenhagen =  490 miles
Copenhagen to Glasgow  =  665 miles
Therefore total to Dungavel  =  1155

He could have , had a cup of tea, signed papers , taken a few group photographs with his often mentioned wife's Leica camera. Then taken off and returned down the West side :-
Shortest :-

Glasgow to Le Harve (via. Penzance)  =  610 miles

If he considered he was in danger then you can add a few miles (say 100m) for deviation :-
Glasgow / Belfast / Dublin / Le Harve

So - his longest round trip back to safety would be  about  1865 miles.

-----------

Well , shortly I will present to you figures  HERE  (after I have taken photographs from a periodical that is considered reliable).

This article , some of the words go like this :-

It has been suggested elsewhere that such a machine did not have the range to reach Dungavel house by the route followed etc. etc.

In September  1941, The Royal Aircraft Establishment was able to issue a set of figures carried out on a repaired Bf 110 which had force landed in britain  (my words here - this was in fact the well documented   BF110C-5, radio code  5F+CM, works number 2177, that was forced down at Goodwood on a flight from Cherburg on 21/July 1940)  Also - we can later go into the subject of fuel octane  (in case he intended re-fueling in Scotland), presently I am looking into the engine comparisons of the two aircraft.  So many airframe & engine versions, a slight difference was making regular improvements in performance / duration (for RAF as well).

Anyway - get back on track :-

The words from the most respected periodical :-

These show that the Bf 110 with Daimler-Benze engines carrying  660 gall of fuel and a bomb load of 460 lb, cruising at 253 m.p.h. at a height of 16,500ft, had a endurance of at least 2,000 miles when running to dry tanks.  These figures have recently been confirmed by a performance chart of the Bf 110 sent to me by Herr Hanfried Schliepake, a ex-Luftwaffe navigator/gunner who was highly experienced in these machines.  Thus Hess could easily reach Dungavel House, especially since he did not carry extra crew members or any ammunition, although he intended to burn up as much of the surplus fuel on frequent changes of altitude as well as low flying at maximum speed during the last part of his one way flight.

I think the last para. by the author of this article had been distracted somewhat by previous books on the subject.   Why have they all claimed it was so difficult to fly to Dungavel without extra fuel in the largest size of drop tanks (from the choice available).  Clearly the RAF knew in Sept. 1941 that this aircraft could do 2000 miles before the tanks were dry.  I will not presently go in to the subject of standard wing tanks , foreward and rear as this is getting into a rivet-counting topic and the subject does not require this precision.

A quite recent book :-

The Flight of Rudolf Hess :  Myths and reality - had it all wrong (according to the RAF figures)  ,,  for example  on page 156 that with two drop tanks of 200 imp. gallons each (correct) , Hess's  Me 110 had a radius of action of 2000 kilometres (i.e. a range of 4000 kilometers)  ,,,
====
4000 km     =  2485 miles  ,

This may be correct on the later aircraft Hess used,  the engine I believe was slightly later , probably improved fuel injection  -  Vorsprung durch Technik  - I believe the words are.

Also - what Aviation spirit did the RAF put in the tanks ,  probably the ground service crew looked at the Octane label at the tank fillers.

Now ,,  there are some misconceptions  Germany quoted  Lean Mix OCTANE  ,,  Allied quoted  Rich Mix OCTANE
100 lean = 130 rich

Late  1939 , the Germans were using  C2 Natural or C3 synthetic  ,  so we must assume the RAF filled the tanks with the correct aviation spirit / nearest available.

Raid  42 / 42 J    ,,  J  =  split raid     ;)

Quoted from flosue

Martin Allen has been discredited as he was found guilty of 'planting' false info to make his book more saleable.
Would be interesting to identify the origin of the airfield photo and date.

============

Yes , just had a quick Google on this + Amazon Reviews of his books.  Very murky - he could have been discredited in this way.
-----
However , the book   The Hitler/Hess Deception by Martin Allen was Published in 2003

and NOTE from below :-

The UK National Archives carried out an investigation.29 faked documents, planted in 12 separate files were discovered. These appeared to have been placed in the files between 2000 and 2005. All were used to support Mr Allen's contentions.
============

Looking into this case of the false documents :-

2 of 2 people found the following review helpful
1.0 out of 5 stars Apparently based on forgeries, 14 Jun 2011
By
Philip Lindsay - See all my reviews
This review is from: Hidden Agenda: How the Duke of Windsor Betrayed the Allies (Hardcover)
I have this and other of Mr Allen's works.

It appears, however, from a report in the Guardian newspaper on Monday 5 May 2008, that the books are based on forged documents.

The UK National Archives carried out an investigation.29 faked documents, planted in 12 separate files were discovered. These appeared to have been placed in the files between 2000 and 2005. All were used to support Mr Allen's contentions.

Mr Allen is said to have been the only person to check out all the files containing the forged documents. Apparently the CPS decided not to prosecute because the author was in ill-health. understand that Mr Allen denied involvement in the forgery. The NA website can, I believe, provide further information.

According the the Guardian, the forgeries were almost amateur, with telegrams and other items revealing factual errors, letterheads created by means of a laser printer; pencil outlines beneath forged signatures; finally, the 29 documents - had been typed on 4 typewriters.

Further, according to an archivist, named as Louise Atheron, (quoted in the Guardian) even where Allen uses citations from National Archives documents that were genuine, he is guilty of "significant exaggerations" and "very fluid evidence".

I think this shows that these books are highly suspect and potential buyers should be aware.

=========

Obviously much more to this subject of planted documents   ;)

Presently , it needs somebody to review OS maps available immediately  prior to WW2 of Dungavel area.  The local County Council Archives should have all of this and more , unfortunately I am not local to Southern Scotland

:P

Page 221 , from book - The Hitler/Hess Deception by Martin Allen , in relationship to the aerial photograph of Dungavel "Emergency Landing Strip" within the same book. Note the comment about nightime landing. Obviously due to adverse comments about the author (the issue of 29 faked documents in the UK National Archives) this needs some confirmation. Presently I would appreciate any local knowledge documentation , in particular reference to OS mapping.

Quoted from Apollo

With no intent to be negatively critical of J Guy, who carried out most of the visits mentioned in RCAHMS reports, I spoke to them, and they told me he just did this out of interest, and did not have a great deal of time to spend on any one site, so reports are not detailed. This means the reports are basically of what could be seen by eye, and not usually of anything that needed to be looked for.

This came to light when I asked about things I found only feet away from reported objects, but which were not mentioned in RCAHMS.

In other words - don't treat the reports as definitive or detailed. There could be a lot more (doesn't mean there actually is though, unfortunately :( )

The Strathaven article has a month but no date - so we have to assume the 70 year reference it uses makes it a 2011 article.

It also refers to Hess landing.

Hess did not land, His aircraft crashed, and he arrived by parachute - separate from the aircraft.

The image described as the airfield is copyright John Harris, so we can probably also assume that has come from his 2010 book.

Any source on the law regarding the Red Cross 'sovereign state' reference?

Sounds like something that would be problematic if an airfield on the same property was a military facility - ie an RAF officially designated emergency airfield.

I suspect hat could nullify such status if it existed.

===================

Regarding the photographs in the Strathaven ,,

Clearly the illustrations in fact come from the 1st published 1999 book of John Harris  &  M.J. Trow (joint author) -

HESS: The British Conspiracy

Possibly it was also in his 2010 book also  ?

Interesting - the book photograph is very clear and must be taken in recent years (far corner of the Landing Ground shows a football pitch with a pair of goal-posts).

-----

I have been reviewing this book ,  HESS: The British Conspiracy , because it has a few pages with details of their research of the aircraft and fuel capacities / ranges in miles , presently I am considering this , but not too impressed   - because the origins seem to be the same RAF details and somebody is wrong ?

;)

Check this article out folks.

What page 573 states regarding the RAE (Royal Aircraft Establishment) Sept. 1941 - obviouysly this page does need to be checked against the official documents.

Presently IMHO , I would expect what Roy Nesbit had to say in a reliable periodical such as "Aeroplane Monthly" is the REAL TRUTH. If this was not the case then he would be shot down in flames in the next issue by the "Rivet Counters" (and there will be many specialists on the ME 110 / Bf 110 range). I also have the following December 1986 copy , there were no revisions or adverse comments at all

;)

There seems to be a problem with your links as all are showing."This image or video has been moved or deleted".

Yes,  I know - I have been watching the situation on 3 qty. computers in the house.

First I am getting hassle as I try to enter the Secret Scotland website , this is with  "Cloudfare" telling me that my network is compromised with a virus (frequently , having to guess the spelling of words - anti-spam) .  This is despite payoing for McAfee via. AOL every month and approx.  £60 every six months for Spyhunter 4 protection. All running in the background with frequent deep searches.

--

Yes,  I noticed that this info. that I loaded using Photobucket went very quickly - after about 30 min.  Possibly Photobucket has a huge computer scanning the internet to remove anything against the small print of their policy (whatever that may be) I had half expected it to be removed , I was surprised by the speed of action.

----

Yes, this info. was  the November 1986 Issue of Aeroplane Monthly  (I have the December Issue for  the second part).

These old copies are not so easy to obtain - so it is a bit of a spoiler if the Forum member interested wish to read all the small print.

The article author is  Roy Nesbit who has written dozens of technical articles for aeroplane Monthly.  Also under the name  Roy Conyers Nesbit - he is the author of about 20 specialist books on  aircraft matters.  Including along with joint author  Georges Van Acker the book :-
The Flight of Rudolf Hess : Myths and Reality.

I read this book from the library , I need to obtain / buy a copy because I need to go through his calculations again regarding the flight milages & fuel consumption - this is going to be on-going.

I doubt if Roy Conyers, Aeroplane Monthly or the D of H could act so quick to have Photobucket remove the info so quick.

The only thing seems that I will have to find the time to type up all of the relevant articles , AS I BELIEVE THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT INFORMATION TO DATE ON THIS THREAD,  and should not be missed by those who wish to peruse -  that way I don't upset the Forum Management (if that is what I have done)  , as I bay be banned for life soon   ;)

I don't know what the legal position regarding copyright for text and illustrations in old books & periodicals is ?

As far as I am concerned this is just a review of all past historical research, with emphasis to the technicalities of the aircraft (proving to be harder than you would imagine) and possibilities of how and where it could land in Northern England or Scotland (if the intention of Hess was not to arrive by parachute unless it was to save his life).

I may be paranoid or am I conspiracy theorist   ;D

May 11, 2012, 4:34pm

My posting of the above showing Dungavel landing stip & buildings , I notice it has been removed and another non-related photograph has been inserted, (shoping compression ratio calculations for a high crown engine piston) just what is going on :-/

The article from  Aeroplane Monthly  dated November  1986

by    Roy Nesbit  (who has done dozens of articles for this periodical)

---

I think you will find this person is  :-

1.  Roy Nesbit
2.  Roy C. Nesbit
3.  Roy Conyers Nesbit

If you Google search on him , then you will find  he is/was :-

President of the Beaufort Association
Himself having been a navigator with 217 Squadron Beauforts

A beaufort is a similar size / type as a Bf110 - so considering also he has written about 20 aircraft books , then his word should be sound ?

From the article :-

This was a long distance version of the Bf 110C, fitted with two large drop tanks provided  396 gal of fuel, together with the 264  gal in the wings, gave a total supply of 660 gal. It has been suggested elsewhere that such a machine did not have the range to reach Dungavel house by the route followed, which was nearly 1,300 miles.  This contention possibly stems from a confusion between operational range and ferry range, for it is not bourne out by known facts.

    In September 1941, the Royal Aircraft Establishment was able to issue a set of figures carried out on a repaired  \Bf 110 which had forced landed in England.
These show that the Bf 110 with Daimler-Benze engines carrying  660 gall of fuel and a bomb load of 460 lb, cruising at 253 m.p.h. at a height of 16,500ft, had a endurance of at least 2,000 miles when running to dry tanks.  These figures have recently been confirmed by a performance chart of the Bf 110 sent to me by Herr Hanfried Schliepake, a ex-Luftwaffe navigator/gunner who was highly experienced in these machines.  Thus Hess could easily reach Dungavel House, especially since he did not carry extra crew members or any ammunition, although he intended to burn up as much of the surplus fuel on frequent changes of altitude as well as low flying at maximum speed during the last part of his one way flight.

=======

Well , there you are.  I am also now convinced that my Photobucket is being hacked into by unknown persons      ;)

My posting :-

May 11, 2012, 4:34pm

That has been CENSORED or Edited ,  possibly by Admin.   ???   or hacked about by persons unknown   ;D

I have determined the page 221 of the following book was removed  (it seems to me somebody is messing with my Photobucket account)   ;)

This is page 221 from the following book  :-

Author  Martin Allen

The Hitler/Hess Deception.
Publisher  Harper Collins   2003 dated.
ISBN   0007141181

From the top of the page  221  :-

     These matters may have passed through the Duke of Hamilton's mind as he watched  WAAF tellers plotting the course of the enemy raid 42J across the large multi-coloured map of northern Britain at  10.30 p.m.  on Saturday,  10 May 1941.  In his pre-war days as a flying enthusiast.,  the Duke ordered an airstrip to be constructed in the grounds of Dungavel House, near what had formerley been the ducal hunt's kennels.  These had been converted into an office and maintenance buildings capable of housing several aircraft.  With the coming of war the airstrip had been uprated for occasional use by the Air Training Corps, and by the late spring of 1940 Dungavel had become an emergency landing strip for aircraft unable to reach their own bases due to damage or mechanical failure.  In consequence of this new role the runway had been uprated for night use by the fitting of landing lights.

As the plot of raid 42J progressed ,,,,   etc. etc.

I note that at the present time the photograph of the Dungavel landing strip , hangars , maintenance facilities  ,  remains on this site.  This is a illustration within this book, but we know where it originates and it is not copywright of the autor or publisher.

;)

Copyright isn't that simple as far as I understand it. When a pic is published I think the version of the picture printed counts as a new image and the copyright starts again from the date of printing. Chapter and verse is in a lengthy thread elsewhere on the Forum.

I have no idea what happened to your stuff but it is possible that the copyright owner had it removed I suppose.

I haven't been following thhis very closely but can I ask a question which you may already have answered?. It is always stated that Hess was on his own but what proof of this have you uncovered? The only thing i remember reading waas that Hess told the farmer that he was alone which I would not take as necessarily being true.

I am not aware of any proof at all that Hess travelled alone for all or part of his flight as far as Eaglesham. IMHO - to parachute from a BF 110 would not be a good plan (except as last resort) due to the extra danger from the tail-plane with twin outrigged tail-fins. There would be plenty of suitable landing fields in Northumberland & Scotland to drop somebody off by landing - but did he have time ? The OC documents seem to indicate this was not possible , you would normally use such as a STOL aircraft of Lysander type in any case for that type of mission.

Early accounts , that I have read , seem to originate at the Glasgow newspaper that was prepared to bust the censorship. All this business that a Bf 110 could not return flight seems to originate from the locals + service people , living near to the crash site making this statement - because the RAF "boys" had told them (I assume this was the crash recovery team). These early stories have then been re-cycled for 70 years. The book , Rudolf Hess : The Uninvited Envoy by James Leasor is quite early (1962) and he credits some book content to Ilse Hess's book "Prisoner of Peace" , Original publisher of 1st Edn Britons is dated 1954 (German language Edn. about 1952). Expert opinion is that the flight plan - is not correct. Following books seem to parrot the same , often by plagiarism ;)

I wasn't thinking of him dropping anybody off.

As I recall there were accounts of his arrival by parachute and of him being dragged from the wreckage of the plane which apparently did not crash but landed rather heavily and did not catch fire.

There are discepancies in the list of places he was kept prisoner and of the times.

There were also reports that the man held in Spandau was not Hess. if he wasn't who was he and what did he know that warranted such a long sentence?

Could have been deliberate misiinformation of course but misinformation usually requires some planning and in a case like this I would suggest the nod from a higher authority. How many people apart from the Duke were in the know? If there had been 2 people on the plane then much is explained.

Just pondering out loud as it were...............

QUOTE.

There are discepancies in the list of places he was kept prisoner and of the times.

There were also reports that the man held in Spandau was not Hess.  if he wasn't who  was he and what did he know that warranted such a long sentence?

======

Yes,  I am well aware of the discrepancies in the list of places he was kept prisoner and of the times he was questioned.

Also it does seem to be a accepted fact that Hess was first questioned by the Polish Consul at Glasgow (Roman Battaglia) acting as a interpreter in German language - when he was held by the Home Guard within the Scout Hut.  Yet apparently Hess spoke good English when he was at Floors Farm  ?
I consider the Floors Farm story - probably untrue.  Possibly he did land ?

Years of questioning - he revealed nothing, he would / must have known about the V (vengence weapons) V1 , V2, Supergun etc.  Stage of aero engines beyond piston.  He must have known about the  stages of nuclear research in Germany.

I am aware of the views the prisoner held so long at Spandau was not Hess, however I have read a good explanation - if you accept as true the supposed calibre of bullet at the entry exit , leaving no scar tissue.  I bet there were no DNA samples taken when his grave was recently removed , his bones cremated and scattered at sea.  How convenient - the ultimate proof on this issue - now gone,  on the Spandou issues - I have yet to read the book by  Eugene K. Bird  - Prisoner 7  (The lonliest Man in The World).

Presently - my main consideration is that for 70 years there has been little attention to the fact that, in all probability - he could have released  the drop-tanks over the North Sea - and continued with his wing tanks , landed & taken off back to France on his wing-tanks.  The Mk. of  Bf 110 is very difficult to define , I consider it was in fact a special, there was a accessory fuel tank kit for the interior of the fuslage , as he apparently had no crew - then he would not be overloaded for take-off if this was used.

Why would he take a Leica camera ?  - if he intended to parachute, involuntary or not.  Seems to me he expected to return to the continent in the Bf 110 he set off with.

The book by  John Harris & M.J. Trow   HEWSS The British Conspiracy dated  1999 , does turn out some good Important evidence - a photograph of :-

The No. 30 Observor Centre.  The text caption states :-
Observor Map of the night of Hess's flight, shows Hess's plane  (Raid 42) , a second enemy plane Raid  42J) and a third plot (GU).  None of the Operation Record Books (ORB's) mention the other two planes.  So did the plot GU take off or land  ?  Why does  Why does Hamilton make no mention  of plot GU  ?

I believe this is retained at the County Durham Public Records and Archive at County Hall,  I don't live far away - I may make an appointment to view as the photograph lines of flight are not too clear.

;)

Please be advised.

It is a pity that the Photobucket of the article by Roy Nesbit  (Aeroplane Monthly , November 1986) was removed from this thread.

I have double-checked - what I had to copy-type earlier in the thread yesterday ,  it does state 2000 miles  (not 2000 kilometers) , regarding :-

In September 1941, the Royal Aircraft Establishment was able to issue a set of figures etc. etc
  , had an endurance of at least 2,000 miles when run to dry tank.

Now I understand that during WW2 the Fleet Air Arm would use knots (nautical miles) and the RAF used miles , because I have preaviously read of instruments having to be changed for this reason.

So, in 1941 , the RAF would use miles , I doubt if they used kilometers due to confurion it would cause.

In November 1986 , I would expect  Roy Nesbit to get the figures correct from the RAF document at least 2000 miles when running to dry tanks , the second write up and conclusion in the December 1986 issue had no corrections stated.

----

I have in front of me the 1st edition (1999 , Sutton Publishing Ltd) of the book by the same person  The Flight of Rudolf Hess Myths and Reality,  page 93 states :-

with the total supply of fuel, the range of the Bf10E-s/N was 2,000 km   (2000 km = 1243 miles)
This 1243 , must be the operation range (radius of operation)  because if not then Hess could have gone for 2486 miles until his tanks ran dry  !

Further  -  I have today obtained the latest paperback version by  The History Press dated 2011.

Unfortunately the text against the page numbers does not correspond.  However on page 76 , exactly the same information is stated.

Of interest is the Illustrations ,  No. 25 now shows the identical photograph (as detailed earlier in this thread) from the Martin Allen book -  The Hitler/Hess Deception dated 2003 , so -  R.C. Nesbit must have decided to check this out and includes the comment against the photograph :-

The author Martin Allen described these buildings near Dungavel House as showing "Clearly much more than a mere grassy airstrip and a few sheds, as has always previously been implied."   In fact, only the hangar bottom left and three adjacent small buildings relate to the tiny airfield.  A corner of the latter appears bottom right.

---

Now Further ,  is  Illustration No. 26  a MAP  ,  Dungavel House and its grass airfield in 1941.  Extract from map supplied by the Hamilton Estate)

This states  Grass airfield.   NOTE.  With the area delineated by the the entrance roadway to  Kennels , wooded / fenced area next to kennels , Public highway in front of Dungavel House ,  finally a line approx. parallel with the Kennels access Rd from corner of Kennels plot near Hangar/buildings - running to the public highway just above what seems to be a entrance in 1941 to Dungavel Ho.

This area  -  it is quite small,  the Hanger is marked on the map and is in fact the largest dark coloured building on the aerial photograph.  So a aircraft would have a fair taxi to this  "Grass airfield"  assuming that the wind was in the right direction for a take off.

Well folks , you can consider this info. as you wish .  IMHO the glider school would never limit its operation to this small area ,  I doubt if any powered aircraft would limit its take off or landing to this small area.  I doubt if a Tiger Moth could operate from this small area.

I consider this to be the most important consideration , whenever you read any book / Info. on the flight of Rudolf Hess made available in the last 70 years     ;)

Quote:-     'These matters may have passed through the Duke of Hamilton's mind as he watched  WAAF tellers plotting the course of the enemy raid 42J across the large multi-coloured map of northern Britain at  10.30 p.m.  on Saturday,  10 May 1941.  In his pre-war days as a flying enthusiast.,  the Duke ordered an airstrip to be constructed in the grounds of Dungavel House, near what had formerley been the ducal hunt's kennels.  These had been converted into an office and maintenance buildings capable of housing several aircraft.  With the coming of war the airstrip had been uprated for occasional use by the Air Training Corps, and by the late spring of 1940 Dungavel had become an emergency landing strip for aircraft unable to reach their own bases due to damage or mechanical failure.  In consequence of this new role the runway had been uprated for night use by the fitting of landing lights.'

FYI- The ATC was formed on 01/02/1941, previously there was the Air Defence Cadet Corps started in 1938.The first Glider ATC School was on the 28/06/42, (SE London) and by end of 1942 there were only 14  schools.
Most ATC powered flight training would have been on RAF Airfields. so it would be unusual for a private grass field to have state funds expended  for ATC use only, or for lights, except perhaps for an emergency light.
Although, Group Captain, The Duke of Hamilton and Brandon, was the CO of Scottish Command ATC. so maybe some strings were pulled!
Grass airfields were not unusual in these days. even during the middle 60s I used to be flown from Burnaston in a DC3 (Pioneer),grass with a slight slope, and don't recall any flights being cancelled due to weather even in winter!
Spitfires etc often used grass airfields although their u/c was a bit weak for any bumps.

Presently - the issue is just this :-

The History Press, dated 2011 , Re-printed , and just months old , Edition of :-
The Flight of Rudolf Hess Myths and Reality
by Roy Conyers Nesbit and Georges Van Acker.

The book and authors are considered sound.  However the text as far as I am able remains un-changed.

The issues are :-

The 2 qty. illustrations that were not in the original hardback Edn.  of  1999 (I am aware of another two intermediate edditions).

1.  The aerial photograph of the "Emergency Landing Field"  , we know the source and it is years after the flight to Scotland of Rudolf Hess.
2.  The map illustration , supplied by the Hamilton Estates  (obviously in relation to a query about the above photograph).

Yesterday - I had to make the comment :-

Now Further ,  is  Illustration No. 26  a MAP  ,  Dungavel House and its grass airfield in 1941.  Extract from map supplied by the Hamilton Estate)

This states  Grass airfield.   NOTE.  With the area delineated by the the entrance roadway to  Kennels , wooded / fenced area next to kennels , Public highway in front of Dungavel House ,  finally a line approx. parallel with the Kennels access Rd from corner of Kennels plot near Hangar/buildings - running to the public highway just above what seems to be a entrance in 1941 to Dungavel Ho.

This area  -  it is quite small,  the Hanger is marked on the map and is in fact the largest dark coloured building on the aerial photograph.  So a aircraft would have a fair taxi to this  "Grass airfield"  assuming that the wind was in the right direction for a take off.

--------------------------

YOU or ANYBODY reading this does not have to make a site examination,  don't accept my word - buy the paperwork and study this map provided by  the Hamilton Estates.  Unfortunately I can not display this map here (I do not have permission of the Hamilton Estates) ,  if I added this map to my Photobucket account from the book  - I then know from past experiance it will be removed within  1/ 2 hour  (I suspect it is all too easy to hack into a persons Photobucket and swap things around, Photobucket would just remove it and place a suitable notice stating such).

THEN , even if you live at the other side of the world , study using Google Mapping the sattelite view - just type in the search  1 word  Dungavel !

Your will see the  BIG house , now known as Dungavel House Removal Centre (marked) , off the public highways  B743 and B745 - you can use "Pegman" to view the area , unfortunately you can not view from the private road leading from the B743 to the Kennels.

Slap bang in the middle of the area the Hamilton Estates map  deliniate as the "Grass airfield"  - on the Satellite view , you will see a large oval area (I understand this is a walking / exercise area for "foreign unwanted aliens awaiting deportation by aircraft" - but not direct from here , ironic or what).  Due to the nature of present governmental use, with security guards etc.  - it is wise not to linger on the public highway in the general area or on the grass verge, you will soon be warned to move on and have a police attendance.

We are being asked to believe that the flight-path would be directly over Dungavel house and the Kennels,  it is hardly suitable for radio control model aircraft.  The greatest danger of engine failure is on take-off or landing -  the end result would be to crash into the only solid structures in the area !

No -  IMHO ,  the "Emergency Landing Ground"  was all of the huge flat area (generally to the West of the "Grass airfield" that is being suggested.

In this area - you could make a safe landing with a Bf 110 or a Short Stirling - no problems.

Would the RAF have authorized just that area of ground as emergency landing field - seriously  ?   No - it would be a total waste of public money during wartime..   The NE of England & Scotland were covered with training RAF airfields -  would the RAF have suggested to pilots of Hurricanes or Spitfires that if they were in trouble overhead - then aim just for that small area of field  ??

;)

PS.  When you are on Google Mapping satellite view :-

The public highways  B743 and B745 , the screening trees from the junction running up the B743 towards Dungavel Ho. - these are much later and this area was grass during WW2.

The circular tree stand extant , well then - a site visit can be made to measure the girth , then calculate the tree rings , abt. 1/4" between p.a. in the cool wet Scottish lowlands   ;)

On the subject of Bf 110  additional fuel tanks.

This is interesting :-

Stackpole Military History Series.
LUFTWAFFE FIGHER BOMBERS  The Battel of Britain
by   Chris Goss.
Published in paperback , 2011 by Stackpole Books.

Page 43

The words of a person who was there :-

Chapter    The Pace Quickens ,  August 1940

Oberleutnant Hans-Ulrich Ketterling , 1/ZG 76

Our orders were to protect the He 111s of KG 26 which would attack airbases in Northern England.  Since our Bf110s could not reach England and return with standard tanks, we had one additional fuel tank under the belly and one under each wing.  The idea was to use the fuel in the wing tanks first and then discard them over the sea and to reach England with the bellytank as the sole handicap.  This ungainly blister was a handicap enough - it made the plane several kilometers per hour slower and the unused fuel slopped around, making steering and aiming unstable and since the tank was made from plywood, it was highly flamable.  We were all anything but happy to perform our first long range raid with our mutilated planes.

-----

So what better proof ,  the "dachshund" belly tank (that had to remain in situ.)  WITH one UNDER each wing (that were dropped) along with the standard wing tanks of course.  Obviously the wing drop tanks must have been of the smaller size , the maths is possible.  The Bf110 was obviously the fighter role.

As Hess's plane did have a small fire at the crash site -  do not rule out the possibility it had a plywood belly tank along with the larger wing drop-tanks (as he had no crew or munitions) , it was a "special"  - it could have been well stripped to reduce weight further , such as seats etc. not required. It is well document he had with him simple compasses, possibly he did have the early "autopilot" , he may not have had any communications equipment.  Navigational equipment of a advanced type was not needed , esp. if he had a escort for most of the flight to the coast     ;)

;)

Quoted from flosue

Quote:-     'These matters may have passed through the Duke of Hamilton's mind as he watched  WAAF tellers plotting the course of the enemy raid 42J across the large multi-coloured map of northern Britain at  10.30 p.m.  on Saturday,  10 May 1941.  In his pre-war days as a flying enthusiast.,  the Duke ordered an airstrip to be constructed in the grounds of Dungavel House, near what had formerley been the ducal hunt's kennels.  These had been converted into an office and maintenance buildings capable of housing several aircraft.  With the coming of war the airstrip had been uprated for occasional use by the Air Training Corps, and by the late spring of 1940 Dungavel had become an emergency landing strip for aircraft unable to reach their own bases due to damage or mechanical failure.  In consequence of this new role the runway had been uprated for night use by the fitting of landing lights.'

FYI- The ATC was formed on 01/02/1941, previously there was the Air Defence Cadet Corps started in 1938.The first Glider ATC School was on the 28/06/42, (SE London) and by end of 1942 there were only 14  schools.
Most ATC powered flight training would have been on RAF Airfields. so it would be unusual for a private grass field to have state funds expended  for ATC use only, or for lights, except perhaps for an emergency light.
Although, Group Captain, The Duke of Hamilton and Brandon, was the CO of Scottish Command ATC. so maybe some strings were pulled!
Grass airfields were not unusual in these days. even during the middle 60s I used to be flown from Burnaston in a DC3 (Pioneer),grass with a slight slope, and don't recall any flights being cancelled due to weather even in winter!
Spitfires etc often used grass airfields although their u/c was a bit weak for any bumps.

=============

Yes, sorry I was a bit brusk earlier, I do in fact understand the important point you are making here.

Ref. the words :-

These had been converted into an office and maintenance buildings capable of housing several aircraft. With the coming of war the airstrip had been uprated for occasional use by the Air Training Corps

=====

The Air Training Corps , would not just be gliders - powered flight also , (a specialist Glider School apparently came to Dungavel landing field much later in the war. I don't know if they were launched using a vehicle , static winch or power aircraft - possibly all three methods ? (a chopped Standard Beaverette , seemed to be used for line recovery - but I doubt if always used for glider recovery back to launch).

Obviously the point you are getting at is that the Air TRAINING Corps , would never consider using a very small area of field for take-off or landing power trainer aircraft or gliders - thus commonsence dictates that the information supplied by the hamilton estate is misleading

;)

Are these any of your missing pages?

yes ! :)

This is the last bit of the November issue ;)

All I did was to go to Photobucket and do a search for "Hess". They appear to be somewhere in one of your Photobucket albums somewhere. I lose pictures regularly.

A back to basics review of  Bf 110 fuel tanks   ;D

Out of all the books on the Hess flight to Scotland,  IMHO - the most important is the book :-

Rudolf Hess :  The Uninvited Envoy  by James Leasor .  This is on account of the fact that it is quite early (1962)  and his acknowledgements include many people who were then alive who were involved in the flight in one way or another.  Regarding the actual flight - this does involve Frau Ilse Hess , therefore her own book Rudolf Hess : Prisoner of Peace is credited.  Most of us are aware of the official censorship involved between the authorities on the correspondence of Rudolf & Ilse Hess , also the reasons why Rudolf witheld information.

Now the book by Ilse Hess will be the earliest published that covered the flight (I understand the original German book was translated by Meyrick Booth  Ph.D for the English version published 1954).  The book foreword is by  Air Commodore  G.S. Oddie D.F.C .,  A.F.C.  so I assume he proof read the original manuscript.

Page 17.

He criticized, with a frown, the too limited range of the machine, much to the displeasure of Messerschmitt who, however allowed himself thus to be tricked into fitting two auxiliary tanks of 700 litres in the wings !

(NB -  -  IN the wings)

Ilse Hess would know suficient of the technical aspects , difference of wing tanks and wing mounted drop tanks.  Possibly this came over badly at the translation stage  ?

Page 19.  There is mention of Hess having flown quite alone.  On account of the Ottercops Moss early detection of 3 aircraft and other unique evidence (only seen in the book  Hess: The British Conspiracy by  John Haris &  M.J. Trow) -  Observer Map of The Night Raid 42 + Raid 42J.   I suspect the time spent holding over the North Sea was for a meeting of escort Bf 110 from Norway , probably he did have a fighter escort from the continent as a first escort relay.

As this book is quite rare / expensive , and 60 years old - I doubt if there is any copyright problem if I show the odd page here   ;)

Quoted from The Fox

All I did was to go to Photobucket and do a search for "Hess". They appear to be somewhere in one of your Photobucket albums somewhere. I lose pictures regularly.

====

Most strange - thanks , possibly not a conspiracy , more a IT hitch :-/

Did Hess have his own 'personal' 110 or did he just take one frm an airfield? One thing to bear in mind if one was stripped down to the bare minimum like reducing armour stripping out the gunners seat, etc was that every bit of saved weight would help with the range.

In a nutshell - the BF 110 Hess flew to Scotland was povided for the usage of Hess only, it was as a rule prepared and test flown by Augsburg staff.

Probably the best info. is quoted on Page 71 of the 1962 book by James Leasor , Rudolf Hess, The uninvited Envoy.

This is referenced 1. at the bottom of the page -  Hitlers Pilot, Lt. Gen. Hans Baur, Frederic Muller ..  Hans Baur was Chief Pilot for Adolf Hitler and apparently they were friends - so you can't get better than that.

This relates to when Hess approached Prof. Messerschmitt.

The last sentence of the para.   :-

Now for one thing, Hess was Deputy Fuhrer, and for another he might well have a special mission, so Messerschmitt let him have his way.

I had better photograph a page or two on this ,  because this page 71 also states :-

Messerschmitt fitted two tanks, each of 700 litres capacity, INTO the wings.

There is no doubt that the Bf 110 used for the flight to Scotland was a total one-off,  it does not fall into any of the production marks , it was not a pre-pro.  The early 900 litre wing drop tanks, early versions were plywood but later versions were plywood/metal composites.

Hess , he did consider this aircraft as a unique experimental , certainly it was because no others were built like it - therefore it is even arguable on the suffix letters/numerals.

He used it for several months , about 20 flights (IIRC the longest about 4 hours).   There is talk that it was used for state flag waving to such as Switzerland ?

Hess had a few positions ,  Stellvertreter and  "Reichsminister without Portfolio"  amongs others ,  in other words a roving commission to be involved with what he wished.  Certainly - the factory believed this was for saving time and increase in the deputy security - on state duty travelling to any conquered territories (flight on national service)  , any friendly countries within range.  And I suppose that included  his hobby of flying for a "form of recreation".

Messerschmitt  , I suppose to reduce responsibility on his head, convinced Hess against a single engine fighter , a twin-engine having redundancy.

In fact there is nothing unorthodax about this for senior people , because for all the same reasons  :-

Air Chief Marshal Sir James Milne Robb GCB, KBE, DSO, DFC, AFC, RAF

(of the Robb Department Store family of Hexham)

- he had his own Supermarine Spitfire, IIRC  , painted purple and unarmed

;)

Could somebody please discuss / give opinion :-

During WW2 (in particular during mid-1941 or exactly  10/5/1941) - were any Lighthouses still lit in Britain in spite of the blackout  ?

If so was there one or more in the area of Troon, Scotland and Holy Island , off Northumberland coast being used.  So we would be talking about such as   Coquet Island,  Guile Point (east column) , Farne Islands, Sea Houses, Bamburgh etc.

This is because of the page 78 of the James Leasor book  Rudolf Hess The Uninvited Envoy  .  1962  (I understand Leasor was a journalist  put up to write this book by Lord Beaverbrook)..

Acknowledgements include -  Herr Karlheinz Pintsch

-  to quote page 78.  apparent conversation  Pintsch / Rulolf Hess

Pintsch interupted him. How will you know when you reach Holy Island ? he asked.  It's only a tiny dot on the map.  It'll be dark when you reach there.
Exactly, Pintsch, it will be dark , or nearly dark.  And that's how I will know when I'm there, because as you see it has a lighthouse.  This light is one of the very few that are still lit in Britain at night in spite of the blackout.  Several lighthouses are still in use because they mark rocks or reefs or sandbanks. This is one of them. I'll know where I am when I see that light, and then I turn west and fly over the Cheviot hills here.  When I come over the east of Scotland ther's another lighthouse I'll look for, by this place called Troon.  When I see that I'll know I've passed my target, so I'll turn back on the same bearing flying as low as I can, until I see the Duke's house from the air.

=====

I don't think I have read this about lighthouses in any book published later than this  (1962) ,  the only earlier book is Ilse Hess - Prisoner of Peace (23 September 1954) - I don't recall reading it in that book.

This is important - some later books claim that the flight went wrong because of navigation error and Hess did not cross the coast within a RAF Sector where he expected a safe escort to landing. If the lighthouses mentioned were in fact lit - then this means of sound navigation can not be discounted    ;)

ps.  I will try and post this page up from The Uninvited Envoy later .

I think the short answer is that we do not know if any of the lights were left on during the war.

We have been told that pilots  ferrying planes from the USA & Canada were given a special naval code that instructed the west coast lighthouses to come on.  Given that they were mostly, if not all powered by vapourised paraffin (Kerosene) it would have taken several minutes to get them lit.  This suggests that they were normally dark.

I would suggest that contact with the Northern Lighthouse Museum might give you the info for Scottish lights.   Trinity House might be able to tell you about the English lights.

Personally I think it is unlikely that any were permenantly lit.   The loss of the odd ship on rocks (eg SS Politican) on rocks would pale into insignificance compared to the losses from UBoats.

I have Googled around on this subject , however there is next nothing by way of info.

I did find this  -

The oil-burning lantern, with some modifications, remained in use until 1941, when it was replaced by an an electric lamp. During wartime lighthouses were normally darkened and used only in special circumstances as when convoys or 'friendly' ships were expected. Electric lights, unlike oil lamps, could be switched on quickly and at short notice without prior preparation.

From here :-

http://www.wilgilsland.co.uk/page25a.html

The author (Pete Crowther) , does seem well informed.

I am wondering , as the above is regarding shipping.  In the event of a bomber attack picked up by Chain Home ,  did such as RAF Sector Control get on the phone to Trinity House staff and instruct them to switch off   ;D

==

It seems oil lamp use was discontinued for WW2 period and very dangerous coastal situations converted to electric lamps.  Obviously they were manned as look-outs and some were attacked.  However the Germans seemed to value lighthouses as nav. trig points, ISTR reading that that the white was overpainted with camouflage DP ?

Incidentally, Ford, the Trooon light shines a red arc and a white arc and is an aid to entering or leaving Troon harbour.     The only proper lighthouse on that stretch of coast is Turnberry, which being beside RAF Turnberry seems an unlikely candidate for staying lit.

I suppose if the oil lamps were not used during WWII then it is possible that quite low powered electric lamps might have been used.  Given blackoout there would be no question of confusing  a house or street light for the lighthouse.

There is mention in "A River Runs To War" of the Cloch being resplendent in its new camo paint.  As I recall this remark refers to 1944 but i have no idea what colour it might have been in 1941.

Regarding the Farne Islands  (the bigger rocks) , I have established there is a popular dive wreck off Crumstone , only because that lighthouse was blacked out during WW2.   It seems that the main light would be the Longstone - that is the one I need to learn more about.

Hess , needed to get  Herr Karlheinz Pintsch back on side after he returned to Augsburg at a previous attempt (after 4 hours Pintsch had opened his letter as instructed prior).  It could be that Hess told Pintsch on the need to know basis , a load of rubbish.  If Pintsch was taken in , and how could he double-check ?   -  then when the Russians kept breaking his fingers over a 10 year period - all they extracted was this rubbish story   ;D

However - it can not be disregarded as yet , well not on the NE coast   ;)

During the first and second World Wars, the lighthouse exhibited a light when ships were expected to pass the Inchape reef which runs for 2,000 feet across shipping routes of the Firths of Tay and Forth. It was on 27 October 1915 when the Captain of the "ARGYLL" (10,850 tons) one of the Devonshire Class Armoured Cruisers, sent out a routine signal to the Admiral Commanding the Coast of Scotland at Rosyth, requesting the Bell Rock be lit on the night of 27/28 October. The message was never passed on as the lighthouse had no radio and all messages had to be delivered by boat. Heavy seas made this impossible. The "ARGYLL" sank but fortunately there were no casualties at all in the complement of 655 men. In the Second World War the Bell Rock was machine gunned by an enemy aircraft on 31 October 1940, 30 March 1941 and on 5 April 1941. Also on 1 April 1941, one bomb was dropped which exploded about 10 yards from the base of the tower, doing no damage. No one was injured during these raids and the damage consisted (in total) of 9 bullet holes through the dome, 14 lantern panes broken, 4 lens prisms damaged, 6 red shades smashed, 1 balcony tank and balcony rail damaged and 1 astragal damaged.

From :-

http://www.nlb.org.uk/LighthouseLibrary/Lighthouse/Bell-Rock/

;)

Googling around , it seems there is a lighthouse on Little Cumbrae. As this seems to be the western flight turn-point of Hess , I would like to establish what the procedure was during WW2 - as this is the main approach to the Clyde , then there must have been some arrangement for using a light :-/ Likewise the main outer light for the Farne Islands - the Longstone Lighthouse ..

Possibly Turnhouse watch-office had a bank of switches for the lighthouses ;D

Is there not also a lighthouse on the southern tip of Arran as well as Holy Isle. In addition there is, or at least was, a harbour entrance lighthouse at Ardrossan.

Riveting -  10 min. off your life for a bit of historic reading .  Read it in full for context , of course all stated with Parliamentary privilege   >:(

Well - if  Rudi had been shot down over Gibralter , then that would have finished off the post-war British book publishing industry   ;D

Another statement that I read recently in the Press—and presumably the Minister of Information knew of it—was that on a previous occasion, when Hess was on a diplomatic mission on behalf of the German Government in Madrid, he had telephoned to someone whom he knew in Gibraltar to inquire what would happen to him if he were to fly from Madrid to Gibraltar. Apparently, according to this report, he was told that, if he did try, he would be shot down, and for that or for some other reason he 889 evidently decided not to make the venture, and he did not arrive in Gibraltar.

My hon. Friend referred to that highly active genius, the Lord Provost of Glasgow. Some newspapers have even reported that he has had a private interview with Hess. etc. etc.

Mr. J. J. Davidson (Glasgow, Maryhill)

May I intervene a moment? First of all, with regard to this question of the Lord Provost of Glasgow, as a Glasgow Member and one of the Glasgow group, I recognise the very great work Lord Provost Dollan has done on behalf of the war effort—no one more so—and he is a personal friend of mine. I want the right hon. Gentleman and the House to understand the position of the Lord Provost. He is not only the civic leader in Glasgow, but also the Lord Lieutenant of the county, and he has been surrounded constantly, as members of the Government have not, by rumours and by stories that are raging right throughout the workers in Scotland as to the true reasons for Hess's arrival in this country. etc. etc.

I would make this plea for our civic chief in Glasgow. He has been surrounded by these difficulties, and the right hon. Member has not; the right hon. Member has not gone to meetings where groups of workers were instigated to ask questions about Hess, or to go to conferences where this question was being put about by certain sections of the community. He 918 has not had to face the difficulties of the Lord Provost of Glasgow. It is only natural that, in order to allay, as he thought, these suspicions, the Lord Provost should make a clear statement as far as he possibly could. The House must recognise that any statement he does make carries with it a certain amount of authority—the right hon. Gentleman may say that he had no authorisation from the Government to make this statement, but he is the Lord Provost of Glasgow—he is the civic chief—and he is the Lord Lieutenant of the county, and is constantly in touch with important sections of the community.   etc.  etc.

919 Hess did not arrive here on his own initiative. I have spoken to very experienced airmen who have flown many hundreds of hours in the present war. Every oné of them agrees that no one man could have made the flight Hess made without assistance. He had assistance, he must have had assistance. His course was one of the most difficult that could have been undertaken. It was one of the chanciest flights a man could have undertaken unless very careful preparation by experts had been made for that flight. All these stories are circulating in the country. Many people in the country are wondering what people assisted Hess, what group he had behind him, where that group were? The course of his flight, which was very accurate if he was making for the area for which he said he was making, required a thoroughly experienced airman to land where he did. All those points are being discussed. All those points are being thrown at Lord Provost Dollan. He has finally been forced to make a statement. It is up to the Government to make a definite statement, not attacking Lord Provost Dollan, but recognising the circumstances, making it clear to the people of this country, who are engaged in the war effort, that those secret negotiations of the past have gone by the board.

Mr. Sloan

Not altogether, I agree. But there are 15 Members of Parliament in Glasgow, and I am sure they are far better able to make pronouncements than is Lord Provost Dollan. Why it should be necessary for him to do these things, I cannot understand. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr Silverman) has performed a very useful service in raising this matter. I regret that he has not had any answer to his questions. Here we 921 have an individual who flies from Germany to Scotland—of all places in the world. Why Scotland? [Interruption.] I hear someone say that it is a neutral area. In any case, he flies 800 miles. He was an experienced flyer, as the hon. Member for Maryhill said, who flew a considerable distance over Scottish waters and over Scottish land, over land where there were Scottish farmers, watchers,. members of the Army and the Air Force and the Observer Corps, with all the necessary equipment, and landed within a few miles of his proposed object. We were told by a representative of the Air Ministry that from the very moment Hess baled out, a Spitfire was on his tail, but the Spitfire on his tail was Davy Maclean with his pitchfork. The common experience in Scotland is, discuss it with anybody you like, that, if Hess had been able to land and had not cracked his silly little ankle, he would have carried out his mission and would have returned to Germany without the people of Scotland knowing anything at all about it.

(I have ISTR only read about this in one of many books - I need to hunt it out)

Major Adams

I am extremely sorry to intervene, but this is something I have not understood. Why is Hess treated as a prisoner of war? I put this question quite seriously. Is he not more accurately described as an alien here without passport? Should he not be treated as a civil prisoner?

;D     Now - the odd alien here without a passport is banged up in Dungavel   :)

SOURCE

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1941/jun/19/rudolf-hess

;)

Well folks - I have found info. about Lightships being used on the Clyde during WW2 , here :-

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1461313/Kintyre-At-War-1939-1945

Lots of info. takes a while to scroll through ;)

---

Kintyre Antiquarian and Natural History Society's -
KINTYRE AT WAR 1939 – 1945
- Text © 2005 Donald Kelly301
'Campbeltown Courier' Cutting - June 9, 1945
“U-1172”
, was on the prowl in The North Channel looking for targets for targets and, for the moment, lyingwatching from the shelter of the Clyde Light Vessel, the 'North Carr' lightship brought round, in the earlystages of the war, to moor some half-dozen miles or so south-east of Sanda Island at 55° 08' N, 05° 25' W andguide convoys in and out of the Clyde

Another, but un-manned light vessel had been moored at the Otter Rock, off Port Ellen, since 1907 - Thisbeing the only 'tidal node point' on the west coast of Britain, there being no rise or fall of tides there and thetides radiating and sweeping round in an arc from its position.

Impressive finds Ford. I will read through it more thoroughly in the morning.

Fortunately - the North Carr Lightship still survives as a floating museum , so a fair chance of finding out exactly what the WW2 light for Clyde approaces was during mid 1941. It seems the North Carr was not on station at Clyde until 1943. At least a reliable clue as to the procedures - just need detail of lighting to Clyde 10/5/1941 , probably only one of the original lights ?

Bit more info :-

1943-1945 during the war the lightship was moved to a station between the Mull of Kintyre and the Mull of Galloway to mark the entrance to the Clyde, the light was only lit, when ships were passing

http://www.feuerschiffseite.de/SCHIFFE/Schottland/northcar/northcargb.htm

=====

East coast , I assume the Longstone lighthouse would be the one to keep lit during WW2 , I assume lighting was minimal at East coast also. The Longstone did come under Luftwaffe attack, I wonder if a lightship only was used on the east coast ?? , manned for light on / off wartime procedures.

Of course - lights no use to Hess unless he had some "arrangement" made prior for signaling , 10 to 11pm approx. on 10/5/1941

;)

Probably the few lights being used were Lightships , easier to keep a ship under admiralty control ;)

Scottish Lights & Trinity house would probably be under rationalized same rules so all were aware of the game :-

Light Regulations

Changes were also made in the regulation of the lights. All lights within Board jurisdiction were classified as: E (to be extinguished), L (to be left burning in the interests of shipping, having been dimmed and screened), or E+ (to be extinguished, except in certain circumstances). The Middle (Spurn) Lightship was classified as E+ and only gave out light with the approval of the Flag Officer, for either HM Ships or Merchant Ships on days which had two dark tides. Even in these cases, the lights including the riding lights (the anchor light) had to be reduced in brilliancy. All lights were returned to full brilliancy after the war and the Spurn was re-classified as R in future times of emergency which meant that it was to have reduced light power except in fog.

SOURCE.

The Spurn Lightship and WW2

http://www.hullcc.gov.uk/museumcollections/collections/storydetail.php?irn=11&master=424

;)

Quoted from FordPerfect

Fortunately - the North Carr Lightship still survives as a floating museum , so a fair chance of finding out exactly what the WW2 light for Clyde approaces was during mid 1941. It seems the North Carr was not on station at Clyde until 1943. At least a reliable clue as to the procedures - just need detail of lighting to Clyde 10/5/1941 , probably only one of the original lights ?

Well the North Carr survives (but only just, it is in a bad way) but has not been a museum for many years now. It was part of a museum when moored in Anstruther, but has now for many years been rusting away in Dundee Docks.
These pictures were taken about 8 years ago, but last time I saw it it had deteriorated further

It seems that some lighthouses were in fact painted black , however it seems not all .  Here is a good photograph of a Lighthouse in DP to blend with surrounding property.

http://www.gtyarmouth.co.uk/Bygones/Aussie_Arthur/html/harbour.htm

Anyway sufficient on lighthouses for now, I am satisfied Hess used them at east & west coast.  Possibly as a simple belt & braces back up that did not greatly affect concentration needed to pilot + navigate the aircraft.

I have spent a bit of time of late re-reading all earlier books to re-evaluate the info. to hand that is not contaminated by the conspiracy theorists   ;D

One thing that does impinge on my mind is that a lot about the EagleSHAM crash-site does not ring true.  I feel there may be more truth came out by the free press (censored) reporting in the UK , than released by the authorities then or since.

There is one snippet of info. that I have pondered on , possibly the press reported on this more fully in the U.S.A.   I do know that the press were puzzled about this at the time.  I have purchased a News Agency wire photograph(s) - they are on their way, one still with what seems to be a print caption explaining their puzzlement  (and mine).

This is the evidence  (possibly)  to a untold story  ??

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261015509364?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

The man in the photograph , I suspect is the earliest Glasgow reporter to site (so his name is known)  from the common told story.  Is that a PRESS arm-band he wears  ?

NB.  The holes  in the upturned fin, there is no structural fixings to the tail-plane at this position , IMHO light skin rivets would not pop like this on impact.  Any rivet-counter knows the skin rivets would burst the alloy skin from rivet to rivet or pop the rivet head with a diameter tear little more than the dome head.

Time soon - I am eager to review a photograph of this in better detail.  I don't think this photograph was ever shown in the British press , the one of this starboard fin is always in a deep shadow such that the holes are never seen.

Anybody who has ever built a Keil-Craft or Veron balsa model should be able to use his own loaf and say  - I vote popped rivet or bullet hole    ;D

Is this one of the reasons for the famous words by Roosvelt  ??

"I wonder what is realy behind this story"

;)

"Is that a PRESS arm-band he wears ?"

Yes Ford, I'd guess it's a PRESS arm-band too. The only other thing I'd guess it to be is an "LDV" (Local Defense Volunteer: forerunner of Home Guard) arm band, but by 1941 the Home Guard had uniforms.

The notion of bullet holes was, I believe, quite widely held at the time.

Three possibilities, and a news a link too: British fighters jumped Hess, Nazi fighters jumped Hess, or previous damage to the aircraft.

The last possibility is interesting though, don't you think? If this were true it would certainly explain Hess's mentality at the time.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1955&dat=19410514&id=4KAhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FpoFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5929,2972043

Yes, all this additional info. is very interesting - keep it coming  !

I very much doubt that Hess's Bf110 would have taken off from Augsburg with any damage of this nature, it would have been totally free of any defect.

The aircraft is well recorded in books etc. interviews with such as Helmut Kaden and Willi Messerschmidt , it was for the sole use of Hess, apparently he liked this particular aircraft and requested (granted) that it be modified for his requirements in several ways.  It is also stated that it was kept guarded.
The code was a factory code , never issued for action.

This particular photograph is in fact the one used on the front page of the  "DAILY RECORD"  dated Tuesday May 13th 1941  Headlined  RUDOLF HESS IN GLASGOW OFFICIAL.  It is used in the book My Father Rudolf Hess by Wolf Rudiger Hess , but it does seem infrequently used in comparisons in common photographs used in all the other books.  The details of the bullet holes are not seen as even though it is the same photograph , the fin is in heavy shadow or is it just poor quality of news-print for a detailed photograph  ?

I have read at odd times about these bullet holes and wondered, it does seem to me that after the revelation in the Daily Record that this photograph was subject of censorship in the U.K.   I have watched and waited to get a wire photograph from US release

;)

Newsreel - obviously taken later recovering parts at the Carluke Yard

Something here , however it all happens very quick & gone before you can concentrate ;)

Remember we have an eye witness account that the wreckage was removed and returned later for photographs. No real guarantee it was the same wreckage?

The veracity of the farmer's account is somewhat diminished when you see his wife mouthing the same words obviously on an early form of autocue.

The fin does look a bit battered in the newsreel when at the Carluke scrap yard , understandable under the circumstances.

The provenance of the news wire photograph is sound , comparison to the "DAILY RECORD"  dated Tuesday May 13th 1941  , front page headline - it is the same photograph , reading the history of reporter / photographer to crash site, story submit to censor , wtf , chance of a lifetime scoop - print and be dammed.

I would have to search my Hess books for the best write up on all this.   One thing that is mentioned , the photographer was a bit shirty when instructed to go - stating he would only take a photograph of the crash wreckage , not the McLeans or others..

And yet , how then do you account for this   :-/

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251071312388?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Have you seen this photograph before ?

Can you identify the lady as being of the farm house / cottage  ,  I presume the men could be locals , dress seems reporter(s)  or  "official"  civil investigator types

;)

TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT.

In all of the Hess books,  the subject of the Dungavel  ELG is hardly mentioned , other than the fact that the private airfield was suitable only for a Tiger Moth or similar.

Further some will insist that  "Short Field"   /   "Soft Field Take Offs / Landings" , would be totally impossible for a Bf110 ,  the field would be too waterlogged in early months inc. May etc. etc.  The tyre ground pressure would be far to high,   Hess would have piled it up and broken his neck etc. etc.

And yet German military type aircraft were designed for operating from ploughed field conditions , the Stuka weights are similar to a Bf110.  You only need to look at field condition photographs on the Eastern Front + North Africa theatre.   During the 1930's such aircraft and the medium type bombers were test proven in Russia by agreement with Stalin (hidden away from western allies, the Germans broke the armistice with Russian conivance). I understand that in exchange the Russians were provided with technical data that was then used to improve their own designs.

I have suggested previously that you view the land to the front of Dungavel House to from the B743 & B745 roads , using Google Earth   ;)

Then watch this video :-

You can see , a hard runway is always good to have but certainly not essential

;)

Please (everyone) consider taking a second or two to copy and paste in the YouTube share and embed code...

They provide it for free ;)

(So much nicer for all than a nasty bare url that has to be clicked before you even know what it is.)

Forgive a slight aside, but as regards required vs needed, this incident just occurred where:

On July 20, a US Air Force C-17 Globemaster III of the 305th Air Mobility Wing at McGuire AFB, New Jersey, mistakenly landed at Peter O. Knight Airport, Tampa, Florida.

The plane (actual destination MacDill Air Force Base) was arriving from southwest Asia with 23 passengers and 19 crew members when it performed the unscheduled landing (for reasons under investigation) on the small airfield on Davis Island, whose runway is 3,580 feet long and 100 feet wide, aligned in the same direction as MacDill’s runway (which is 11,421 feet long and 151 feet wide).

Thanks to its Short Landing capabilities, the aircraft was able to come to a stop about 10 feet from the end of the runway but the airport had to be temporarily closed while the Air Force decided how to move the Globemaster.

An unloaded C-17 can take off from a runway 3,000 long and 90 feet wide (depending upon its fuel load and weather conditions).

Conclusion:

The Globemaster III continued its ferry flight from southwest Asia, and departed from the small regional airport just before sunset on July 20.

It had to burn several hours of fuel to lighten itself, and be able to safely depart from the small airfield, and short runway.

As you will see - it had no problems and had plenty to spare in the end.

The point (if there is one) is that figures for aircraft operation are generally conservative, with plenty in reserve for mistakes or human error, so unless one is looking at adverse conditions, whatever performance one might expect from a 110, when it's empty and carries only the pilot... you can be sure it will exceed all the figures you might read anywhere in official specifications.

And that's without considering that most engines in military aircraft have knobs that actually do go to '11' when needed (unlike Marshall amplifiers, where they just printed 0-11 around them, instead of 0-10 because '11 must be louder than 10' - and the customers bought the myth :P )

The arrow as described for location of bullet holes, unable to see it at first until photograph viewed at a acute angle of about 20 degrees, it must have been sort of scratch or pen marked on the original before transmittal. I have used a green arrow similar at the correct position..

--------------

This shows the photograph when used by what I understand a Glasgow newspaper ? DAILY RECORD , as shown in the book My Father Rudolf Hess by Wolf Rudiger Hess. The caption states , The official announcement of Hess's capture caused quite a sensation in the British Press.

I don't think I have ever read anything in a British newspaper about these bullet holes, I was aware of talk of them but probably read about in in a book that mentioned the reactions in the U.S.A.

;)

To further the interests of the "investigation" , ISTR I have read that these bullet holes were in fact poped-rivets due to impact , this is a nonsence.

This photograph shows a different Bf110 crash-site. Look near the top of the swastika , you will see the two fin to tail-plane structural fixings (probably bolted) :-

;)

As we used .303 calibre shells, is it feasible to determine whether the apparent bulletholes are the right size?

There are plenty of photographs to view of WW2 crashed Luftwaffe aircraft with parts riddled by .303" - to compare with , yes - I would say the hole dia are about right ;)

Quoted from The Fox

Remember we have an eye witness account that the wreckage was removed and returned later for photographs. No real guarantee it was the same wreckage?

The veracity of the farmer's account is somewhat diminished when you see his wife mouthing the same words obviously on an early form of autocue.

==============

QUOTE.

Remember we have an eye witness account that the wreckage was removed and returned later for photographs.  No real guarantee it was the same wreckage?

Yes, I agree - this is a very important issue.   The crash wreckage may have been reinstated after removal, there again it could be heresay ,  I have not investigated this aspect.

=========

What I have done..

I have just spent a bit of time ,  these photographs in fact were taken before the wreckage was removed - so in fact the tail-plane photograph is definately that of Hess's Bf110

This is evidenced and that of the Glasgow  newspaper ,  the DAILY RECORD - is in fact detailed in the book by  James Leasor  (1962 first Edn.)  Rudolf Hess  :  The Uninvited Envoy.

Pages  61 to 65 inc.  and  pages  116 to 121 inc.

I have decided to photograph these pages for the benefit of people who may be following this thread , as it of great historical importance that the most accurate account is considered with the photograph(s).

I don't know if you have this book, I consider it very important as one of the first of the Hess books, and the fact of the lists of names on the Acknowledgements page 5.

One of Leasor's comments :-

When several conflicting accounts have been given of some incident, I have endeavoured to strike a mean between them. Any errors are my own.

I will also photograph this page for you.

FOREIGN OFFICE POLITICAL INTELLIGENCE DEPARTMENT (PID) SECOND WORLD WAR PHOTOGRAPH LIBRARY: CLASSIFIED PRINT COLLECTION© IWM (MH 24745)

-----------

More clear , from IWM collection :)

===

FOREIGN OFFICE POLITICAL INTELLIGENCE DEPARTMENT (PID) SECOND WORLD WAR PHOTOGRAPH LIBRARY: CLASSIFIED PRINT COLLECTION
part of "FOREIGN OFFICE POLITICAL INTELLIGENCE DEPARTMENT (PID) SECOND WORLD WAR PHOTOGRAPH LIBRARY: CLASSIFIED PRINT COLLECTION" (photographs)

Second World War: Wreckage of Rudolf Hess' Messerschmitt

Quoted from jimbo

As we used .303 calibre shells, is it feasible to determine whether the apparent bulletholes are the right size?

Will post you a suitable photograph (this evening) of a Luftwaffe fin riddled by .303" , compare that to the more clear IWM photograph just posted

;)

section cut out of rear fuselage of Messerschmitt Bf 110 (3869 & VJ-OQ)© IWM (EPH 9433)

section cut out of rear fuselage of Messerschmitt Bf 110 (3869 & VJ-OQ)

History note (IWM)

Cut from the wreckage of Hess' aircraft, which crashed on 10 May 1941
Physical description

panel Penel hacked out of rear fuselage containing German Air Force cross

=======

Note the rivet lines , these cup head rivets will be abt. 3mm dia. (shank dia.) , if the head was torn from the sheets on impact , the pop hole IMHO would be slightly larger & certainly no where near .303" / 10mm dia. More probable is that the sheets would tear in a line past several rivets and through the holes like a line of stitching

;)

Catalogue number

        H 9553

Part of

        WAR OFFICE SECOND WORLD WAR OFFICIAL COLLECTION

Subject period
    Second World War
Alternative Names

        object category: Black and white

Creator

        War Office official photographer

----

Object description

A British officer inspects the wreckage of Hess' Messerchmitt Bf 110 after it had been removed to an RAF depot, Scotland,

============

NB.

This is the all to often seen photograph(s) , seen in Hess books.  The kilted Scottish Regiment officer with a stick in hand.

There are in fact two photographs of this officer (unknown)  , the common photograph stooped looking at the fuselage , and another one in the railway sidings with a pile of wreckage - obviously at Carluke, Glasgow.

What is presently worth comment is that , as above -  War Office official photographer and dated 13 May 1941.

;)

Quoted from The Fox

Remember we have an eye witness account that the wreckage was removed and returned later for photographs. No real guarantee it was the same wreckage?

The veracity of the farmer's account is somewhat diminished when you see his wife mouthing the same words obviously on an early form of autocue.

============

Just had a look for the other photograph of the starboard fin that appears in books , this shows the remains of tail-plane with starboard fin in correct vertical position, with other crash remains near.  Guarded by troops and police.

Books by James Douglas-Hamilton

1.  Motive for a Mission  (first edition by  Macmillan St Martin's Press  (1971)

If you look - then you can just see bullet holes.
Caption is  10 May 1941, the start of Hess's peace mission !    NB.  photograph not credited at all.

===

2.  Motive for a Mission.  (Corghi paperback edition of 1980)

Photograph smaller - can't see any holes.
Caption is  11 May 1941  :  The wreckage of Hess's aircraft.,  guarded by the Cameronians and the police   (Popperfoto Ltd)

===

3.  The Truth about Rudolf Hess.  Mainstream Publishing.  1993.

Photograph smaller & now cropped at Right Hand side ,  showing one person in overcoat with flat cap - policeman ?  (two policeman with flat caps & steel helmets are now missing).  Fin in dark shadow - unable to see any holes.

11  May  1941.  The wreckage of Hess's aircraft guarded by the Cameronians and the police   (The Herald)

;)

Quoted from jimbo

As we used .303 calibre shells, is it feasible to determine whether the apparent bulletholes are the right size?

=============

Note how the paint splatters around the bullet hole , if there was a primer - WW2 era , probably just a basic phosphoric acid wash primer (if that) as life expectancy of a aircraft only weeks. A .303" bullet would hardly cause much deformation if the skin was hit square on

Modern airframe alloy would be subject of the ALODINE process (not to be confused with the anodising process) , this leaves a primed finish for colour coats , probably paint would hold on a bit better

;)

OK

As explained earlier ,  first known press photographer to crash site , from where the Press Agency wire photographs went around the world  :-

This is evidenced and that of the Glasgow  newspaper ,  the DAILY RECORD - is in fact detailed in the book by  James Leasor  (1962 first Edn.)  Rudolf Hess  :  The Uninvited Envoy.

Pages  61 to 65 inc.  and  pages  116 to 121 inc.

Here we go for those readers who don't have a copy of the book   ;)

---

More , just in case you are getting bored ;D

---

Now Floors Farm was apparently owned by the Baird Family , (Basil Baird).   David McLean was a farm worker living in a cottage 200 yards away from the farm house apparently.  Along with his moter  Annie (64 years old) and his sister,  I presume the lady in the photograph is there fore David McLeans sister  ??  , does anybody know if I presume correct ?

The man on the right of the photograph has a arm-band on , again I suspect Press - so he is the reporter , possibly both men are reporters  Clem Livingstone (journalist involved)  Max. McAuslane  (Duty Reporter) or John Simpson  (Chief Reporter)  or even  Eric Schofield  (General Manager @  Glasgow DAILY RECORD   ????

Can't be the photographer    :-/

:-/

Nice piccies FP. I'll study them when I sober up!

There are definitely bulletholes visible in the newsreel footage of the crash site. But, again, is the wreck the actuel, bit of French there, or a substitute.

But where is the wreckage now? Imperial War Museum? The fueslage is on display there. The fins must be kicking about somewhere.

And that's an He103 with the bulletholes isn't it?

So many questions.

Regards

Jimbo

There are some inconsistencies which do not appear to have been raised regarding the so-called 'bullet holes' which have been pointed at in the Hess plane wreckage.
I'd like to throw the following into that particular pot:

Are we being asked to believe that Hess's aircraft (which was reportedly unarmed and/or had empty weapons) only suffered a handful of bullet holes IF it encountered either British or German fighters?

If Hess had been chased and shot at when leaving Germany by German fighters, then I doubt if he would have outmanoeuvred two or more FW-190s, unless the pilots were drunk.

Had he encountered any combination of Spitfire or Hurricane over Britain, then again, I find it incredible to be asked to believe that if they did open fire on his aircraft, then the thought that the worst damage it suffered was a few holes.

British or German pilots would have shot his aircraft out of the sky within a few minutes (and they did not normally fly alone, so he would have had at least a pair to contend with.)

However, let's not forget also that over Britain, we are supposed to believe that he was expected, and there is an eyewitness account of Czech RAF pilots being told to break off when heading to intercept him.

As for the supposed bullet holes...

Am I the only one that looks at these and notes that they appear to be generally round holes, and must have been made by rounds hitting the SIDE of the aircraft.

If being chased by fighters, then they would not have been shooting from such a location. They would have been chasing his aircraft, so their rounds would generally have hit from behind, not the side, and not square on to the side.

Had their shots his his aircraft (from somewhere behind, rather than from the side), they would have produced longer tears or extended holes as they ripped along and through the material.

Those holes are consistent only with shots having been made normal (ie at or close to right angles) to the surface, and if they are genuine bullet holes, are probably the result of 'target practice' on the wreck - while it was lying on the ground, not in the air.

But I think this is a moot point, since my opening observation means that if he did get shot at by either German or British fighters, his aircraft would have been part of the scenery, embedded in the ground a few minutes later, and we would not have had his arrival in Scotland to ponder for decades thereafter.

It should not need me to point out that even if they could have hit his aircraft as it flew over them, anyone on the ground and taking pot-shots at it would also have been unable to hit the SIDE of the fin from below. But one hit, let alone more, would have been worth many rounds in the pub, as the chances of hitting a moving aircraft with a rifle are next to zero.

Ok - carry on - don't mind me ;)

This news agency wire photograph has very good provenance of possibly being the very first taken of the undisturbed crash site.  In books - sometimes you will get a Carluke Yard photograph alongside a identified crash site photograph , possibly to give the impression that it is also a crash site photograph.  As for the wreckage being returned to the crash site  ?   ,  I treat this as hearsay until it is well proven,  all though I have recollections of reading this - possibly ingrained ?

It was dark when the Bf110 hit the deck, all the early reports indicate there were many uniformed and non-uniformed people examining the site.  Study the books and police comments - having to deal with as many as 200 people  !        If 200 Glaswegians all took a momento - then that accounts for so much missing   ;)

Now - I have spent a little time in Glasgow (staggering distance from the docks) ,  a bit like the wild west but even I would question the professional forces, Home Guard, Police & locals discharging their weapons using the tail fins , fuselage & wings for target practice during the dark hours    :-/

During daylight hours with both a police and armed service guard , contending with keeping dozens of civvies away - then I think not.

As for the RAF recovery team punching holes & slashing out with their wrecking bars , even taking pot shots if it were on a moor top - very possible   ;D

HOWEVER  ,     study the story.    Several Luftwaffe aircraft had been downed previously over Glasgow & the crew rounded up.   Now then - what I suggest you do is read the Stackpole Military History Series book   Luftwaffe Fighters and Bombers , there are dozens of accurate accounts by German Aircrew detailing exactly how they were rounded up and the standard questionaire cards that were available -  are you suggesting their treatment was any different in the Glasgow area ?

The phone wires must have been red hot with tip-offs to friends in other services , police , the Press ,   even Roman Battaglia managed to get there quick and interogated Hess for over two hours, the British Security Services were never even able to get anything out of him !!

No,  the fact is that from a very early stage , even the house wives and boy scouts knew this crash site and pilot was something very much different from all the other cases (and was treated as such by many organisations).  Even a drunken Glaswegian with a revolver in his hand (that there was)  would know he would be in the deepest trouble to vandalise a crashed aircraft knowing there would be far more detailed interest than would normally be the case.

Many of the Home Guard would have been Ex-proffesional soldiers from WW1  ,  the new-boys of WW2 would have had far more respect for their elders in the handling of the matter.   The fact is , half of Glasgow wanted to get there and get in on the act ,  this was something "unexpected" propably to the majority -  Scottish war history happening

;)

QUOTING Apollo

British or German pilots would have shot his aircraft out of the sky within a few minutes (and they did not normally fly alone, so he would have had at least a pair to contend with.)

-----------

Not paired in the dark , they flew as a single if standing patrol , same as night - fighter / night - intercepter

;)

The thing I find puzzling is that the tail fins of the Bf 110 are in line with the body. A spitfire had 8 cannons in a widely spaced horizontal array which only converged at one point. The plane would be moving at about 400 f/s and each gun firing at only 20 rounds per second. What are the chances of landing 8 bullets in the tail and none in the fuselage? Also, the muzzle velocity of the Brownings was 2400 f/s. The impact velocity at the convergence point would be much less. Since the plane's forward movement was significant compared to the velocity of the bullets, it's unlikely that the bullet holes, and paint rings, would be round, there would be some elongation. So were the bullet hole put there deliberately? What sounds better "Hess escapes our defences and only crashes after running out of fuel" or "Hess parachutes out after his plane is damaged by RAF fire?"

Very good point , also the comment by Apollo this morning :-

QUOTE.

As for the supposed bullet holes...

Am I the only one that looks at these and notes that they appear to be generally round holes, and must have been made by rounds hitting the SIDE of the aircraft.

If being chased by fighters, then they would not have been shooting from such a location. They would have been chasing his aircraft, so their rounds would generally have hit from behind, not the side, and not square on to the side.

Had their shots his his aircraft (from somewhere behind, rather than from the side), they would have produced longer tears or extended holes as they ripped along and through the material.

Those holes are consistent only with shots having been made normal (ie at or close to right angles) to the surface, and if they are genuine bullet holes, are probably the result of 'target practice' on the wreck - while it was lying on the ground, not in the air.

===========

Having spent 4 + hours loading a Bar-O-Mix   :o

I have spent abt. one hour having a speed read of this book

http://www.amazon.com/Night-hawk-biography-lieutenant-Kuttelwascher/dp/0718305744

(considered a cult book & best on subject of night-fighter / night-intruder operations.

The techniques are well explained , there is no doubt (and to quote)  The classic attack position is "from astern" often from slightly below astern , at times it has to be slightly above astern, at odd times the "quarter astern" was used.    I would slowly have to read the full book , because I can not find a "beam attack".

--------

This fact alone , could in fact indicate that if Hess's Bf110 was air attacked then it is very likely to have been done by a turret fighter esp. if Hess was making a landing approach.

Now - the Boulton Paul Defiant fighters , in situ. to protect the Clyde Industral Area during the dark hours may be the prime suspect.

IMHO    The Luftwaffe hardware remaining is the prime evidence, official documentary evidence (so loved of historians) can be and was frigged.

The holes in Hess's fin are more or less identical to the holes & paint damage of the Luftwaffe aircraft fin that I posted yesterday, this also shows that fins were peppered in a beam attack and clean holes are punched along with the odd one showing a ragged & distorted hole in the fin.   One thing for clear - the Hess aircraft fin & this very similar Luftwaffe bomber fin are not riddled with holes created by rivets that have popped the skin

:)

AFAIK   That particular starboard fin was always considered important for this very reason.  The RAF handed over the wreckage to the IWM , never heard what happened to the wings ?     You would imagine that the tail-plane fin(s) would be a ideal exhibit to hang from a museum hall  -   WHERE IS IT   ;D

I, for my sins, was originally a tad sceptical about the bulletholes too - thinking that they had been overdramatised by a picture editor.

But, they are definitely there in the newsreels of the crash scene.

I think that the curious pattern may be explained as the effect of a long-distance burst. That is, somebody unleashed a few rounds more in hope than expectation. Or something like that. But there is a definite linear pattern on the fin, suggesting machine gun.

I'd post my dodgy screenshot but I don't how to!

I remember reading the book about the highly decorated WW2 Scottish Air Gunner Wallace McIntosh

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/6726347.stm

It was early in his RAF career (abt. 1940) when he was stationed at either Drem or East Fortune , he received a sound bollocking for his actions. The airfield was under Luftwaffe attack , he jumped into a empty Army gun pit , I believe it was a Bren - had a good bash at downing a attacker. Could be somebody in such a pit used his loaf independant & it was never recorded ;)

There appear to be some discrepancies or at least oddities in the photos.

Some show swasticas on the tail fins and one doesn't.

All but one show the fabric on the moveable part of the fin missing one shows an intact fin.

How come one engine ends up infront of the tailplane, upside down and facing the wrong way.

The pile of metal to the right of the tailplane looks as if it was piled up rather than randomly scattered.

WM, a Spitfire at that time was generally armed with eight .303 Browning machine guns. I don't think Hispano cannon were in use at this time. The machine guns could be harmonised in a variety of arrays, and not necessarily widely spaced horizontal arrays. I do agree however, that the appearance of the holes in the tail, is not at all what one might have expected from the firing of eight machine guns. It would be very difficult to harmonise eight guns to converge on one small area of the tail and it would take some pretty precise flying to hit the tail in harmony with the guns to converge on such a limited area.

Quoted from The Fox

There appear to be some discrepancies or at least oddities in the photos.

Some show swasticas on the tail fins and one doesn't.

All but one show the fabric on the moveable part of the fin missing one shows an intact fin.

How come one engine ends up infront of the tailplane, upside down and facing the wrong way.

The pile of metal to the right of the tailplane looks as if it was piled up rather than randomly scattered.

================

Take care with the photographs and identify / confirm you are looking at the Hess aircraft (and reference which photographs in discussion) , I have posted a photograph of another crashed Bf110 , at Streatlam, Barnard Castle (just a few miles away from where I belong). This was to show the main structural fixings fin to tail-plane as opposed to small skin rivets (often quoted as tearing loose & leaving huge holes - NOT). There is also on the Bd. Castle site photo, what I consider to be a investigators circling of a bullet hole on the fin near the swastiks. I have also posted another photograph of the fin from a damaged HE111 , just to show typical bullet damage

;)

Quoted from Dugald

WM, a Spitfire at that time was generally armed with eight .303 Browning machine guns. I don't think Hispano cannon were in use at this time. The machine guns could be harmonised in a variety of arrays, and not necessarily widely spaced horizontal arrays. I do agree however, that the appearance of the holes in the tail, is not at all what one might have expected from the firing of eight machine guns. It would be very difficult to harmonise eight guns to converge on one small area of the tail and it would take some pretty precise flying to hit the tail in harmony with the guns to converge on such a limited area.

Long before cannon, they were not doing sufficient damage. The advise from the ACE veterans was they were getting in much closer that the training instructions (some had unofficial gun alignment). Forget which book I read this just now but aircraft were returned to the butts and guns set up at a much nearer closing distance to get the cone of bullets right

I'm not sure Ford, when the RAF started to install the Hispano cannon in the Spitfire, but I do know they were still in use with the Mk 18 Spitfire. I served as an armourer with 208 Squadron in the Middle East and we were the last Spitfire Squadron in the Middle East serving in the RAF ( after the Israelis shot four of our Spitfires out of the sky, the Spitfires of our sister squadron, #32, were replaced with Vampires). Our armament consisted of two Hispano cannons and two 0.5 Brownings. By the way, we didn't harmonise the guns and sight at the butts but rather, on the tarmac with an harmonising pattern-board. I might mention though, that when working with A.V.Roe in Canada the guns were always harmonised at the butts along with an R.C.A.F inspector. Sometimes an Avro test pilot would do the firing.

I suppose the 'unofficial gun alignment' you mention is with reference to situations when a particular pilot included himself as 'boss' in the harmonising crew. If he were an "ace", I'm sure he would have got what he wanted.

Everybody seems to have had their shout at suitable alternatived to Dungavel ELG  - now my turn   :P

I have often wondered about this RAF base ,  Hess would have crossed it soon after Wooler .  RAF  Millfield  , near the village of Millfield on  A697  Alnwick to Coldstream,  well out of the way of prying eyes.

http://www.milfield.org.uk/

You can see from the aerial photograph ,  August  1941 main runways in  (probably were May 1941).  On a Saturday night there would have been nobody around - just a few night-watchmen / guards who would have been down the local pub in any case .  Probably just the steam rollers parked up for a Bf110 to steam into    ;)

On  25/7/2012 Apollo did say :-

Ok - carry on - don't mind me   ;)

So  -  I will   :)

1.   I still consider it was Dungavel  ELG that Hess was aiming to land on - not to parachute in the vicinity.

===

I suppose the objective of the "quest" that so many people have studied and more than a few have written books about - is that the "official story" (as little as it is) is not / has never been accepted real truth of what happened on 10/5/1941.
The wartime government and armed forces / ROC seem to be glaringly inconsistent , the participants / witnesses  "stories" have never tallied.

What I find strange is that the Scottish newspapers seemed never to get out to , or soon after report exactly was the situation on the ELG at Dungavel was, however no doubt wartime censorship would prevent.

I find it a great pity that  Pierre van Passen did not get his a** out to Scotland and investigate this, then return to the safety of the U.S.A before he wrote and published his book  "THAT DAY ALONE".    This is important because the Garden City Publishing Co and  The Dial Press Publishers - ended the book :-

On THAT DAY ALONE the brotherhood of man will have become a reality !      New York, September 4,  1941

So here we have the author  Pierre van Passen , with the best of knowledge about the situation generally in Europe (probably with better spies / contacts than any other News Reporter / Author) , writes his book without investigation at Glasgow & Dungavel area.

The book  "THAT DAY ALONE"  upset the Duke of Hamilton so much that he went to court in the U.S.A.

Apparently  -  That Day Alone, described Hamilton as a “British Fascist” who had plotted with Hess. The case was settled out of court in Hamilton’s favour..

The case was not as clear-cut as it appears. Hamilton sued  for $100,000. but all Hamilton received was $1,300 (that probably did not pay for his lawyers & court costs) , that day alone in court with the outcome tells a story. The publisher had to promise that future editions of the book would have to remove the offending passage. However, he did not have to recall and pulp existing copies of the book.

Now then  -    The publisher had to promise    THE PUBLISHER  ???

This seemed to be a huge selling book  ,  the "Publisher"  ,  I had better explain :-

SIT UP AND TAKE NOTE AT THE BACK OF THE CLASS  -   ALL THESE SCHOOL BOOKS DON'T COVER THIS EVER   ;)

1.  DON'T buy this book  "That Day Alone"  published by Michael Joseph Ltd of London .  Certainly NOT the  Edn. that I did  -  First Published in January  1943 ,  It is Produced to the WAR ECONOMY STANDARD  , smaller book (to save timber) , harder on the eyes - also if you wish to see the Duke of Hamilton described as a BRITISH FASCIST - you will NOT.  In fact the Chapter 5.  Part 9 is the end - AND YOU NEED  Part 10   ;D

2. BEWARE , examine the book "That Day Alone" published by Angus & Robertson of Sydney Australia (1942) , I suspect you will also not find Duke of Hamilton described as a BRITISH FASCIST . If anybody has this book - please advise.

3. DON'T buy this book "That Day Alone" published by Garden City Publishing Co. of the U.S.A. , well not the Copyright 1941 , 1942 published Edn. that I did - if you wish to see the Duke of Hamilton described as a BRITISH FASCIST .

This book does have Chapter 5. Part 10 Titled "Hess Flies to Scotland" starting at page 507 , because Page 518 describes - the Duke of Hamilton as , a member of the British Royal Air Force..

Due to length of post being TOO LONG  ,  here is  PART 2.     ;D

.  To play extra SAFE ,  if you wish to see in print the Duke of Hamilton described as a BRITISH FASCIST , then do as I finally did , obtain :-

- book  "That Day Alone"  published by  The DIAL PRESS     1941  FIRST PRINTING , it may be in the second printing & after - I don't know , if you do - then please advise,,     here -  1941  FIRST PRINTING ,  Page  518 described the the Duke of Hamilton as a BRITISH FASCIST.

======

I find the hardware rivet-counting more interesting than the software, the software - there is so little.

I rate James Leasors book high  Rudolf Hess : The Uninvited Envoy.  It has a good list of names for ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS when they were still alive , however we had to wait a full 21 years for this book.
The book  "Prisoner of Peace" by Ilse Hess (mainly letters from Hess when he was prisoned in England & Nuremburg)  . This is dated 1954 ,  a full 13 years late.  The content of the letters is also a bit suspect.

The book -  The Case of Rudolf Hess by  J.R. Rees  ,  Heineman ,  first published  1947  , Heineman -  6 years after the event , a riveting read if you get to the end.  You may prefer the similar book by David Irving  Hess . The Missing Years  1941 to 1945  ( just to keep  Apollo   :)  , I will state  David Stirling being the David Stirling the halaucaust denier   ;D

So - there you are not much early works at all ,  all  we have is the Hess part of - "That Day Alone"  published only 3 months after Hess arrived -  for some reason the best kept Secret in Scotland    :-/

The pages that caused the trouble :-

I suppose if anybody is interested in reading all the "Hess Flies to Scotland part - then I could post up all the pages from 507 to 522 inc. However , it may be best to do that on a new thread ?

;)

The thing is- Hess landed his plane. It was a rough landing and the plane was damaged round the wing and tail sections, so was unfit for any further flying. What it was not though, was a pile of mangled wreckage as seen in all the photographs.

Bear in mind that it was late at night when he landed and was helped from his plane because of a damaged ankle. In the intervening time, the plane was had at by the locals getting souvenirs, and then hacked up to go to Carluke on the back of a lorry. At that point, the plane was just that of Flight Lieutenant Alfred Horn and nothing special to be photographed and sensationalised. Once the pilot had been revealed to be Hess however, it was a whole different story, and the plane had to be recovered from Carluke for all the photo opportunities and investigation.

He was assisted from his plane, had his gun and torch confiscated and helped to the cottage of Mr MacLean. His mother offered "Horn" a cup of tea, which he politely declined but asked to be taken to the Duke of Hamilton. The Home Guard then took Horn into custody, and the gun was handed over to them, and he was removed to Maryhill Barracks in Glasgow where his injured ankle was treated.

I know this because it was my grandfather, Jack McKenzie, who helped Hess/Horn from his plane and confiscated his gun. My father says that Gramdad got quite annoyed every time the parachute story was trotted out because he knew what rally happened and was annoyed that a bloke with a pitchfork and the Home Guard got the credit for what was, essentially, a Royal Signals arrest. As has been said though, pickaxe handles to arrest the deputy Fuhrer does not make for good press.

Yes, I am aware that reports from EagleSHAM , are not to be relied on at all ;)

===========

Here is another photograph understood to be Hess's wreckage , scroll well down (not often seen , in fact I think I have only seen it on the Aircrew Rememberance Society website) , whilst on on what seems to be a "Queen Mary" type of trailer. Quite a bit of detail too.

http://aircrewremembrancesociety.com/RudolphHess.html

;)

One of the main problems is determining the real truth of Hess's days in Scotland.

bye the bye   ;)

I recently obtained the book  by Dereck Wood  "Attack Warning Red"  (1976 by Macdonald & Jane).  Not so easy to find now & cost me about 4 x  the original dust flap ticket of  £8.50 net , but at least it is a minta fine copy. Speed read at the front - it adds little extra to what I know but looks like another  1" &  357 pages of good reading.

So - where were we  :)

The all important Scottish days of Hess    :P

Misleading info. & well planted disinformation  ,  this is the basic info. re-cycled in book after book   ;D credited to Notes in the back  !!

------

The tangled stories of  Major Graham Donald , Assistant Observer Group Officer  (Glasgow Area).

Just ask - "In who's employ was Mr Graham Donald"

1.  ROC (Royal Observer Corp)  34 Glasgow Royal Observer Corps. - correct.

2.  The Graham Donald Machine Tool Company (of Glasgow)  , state all the books  -  WRONG  (no such firm existed)..

3.  ???

------

Returning to  2.   that was easy to me after spending most of my life on machine tools in particular power presses.

Part of SMT Corporation.

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Craig_and_Donald

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Scottish_Machine_Tool_Corporation

Then I do a bit of Gooooogling and find that there is at least one Scoitsman who can tell the real truth  :-

04-01-2008, 06:55 AM #4
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    Was most interested in your article on Craig & Donald Graeme,

    This firm was in its day one of Scotlands oldest engineering concerns, and as your catalogue shows specialised in plate working machine tools In the west of Scotland, there were three firms which specialised in plate working plant, vis-- Craig & Donald, Jas Bennie & Co of Glasgow, and Smith & Co of Possil, also Glasgow Occasionally another firm called Crow Hamilton & Co of Glasgow were wont to manufacture the occasional plate working machine tool also, As you possibly know, ( from past postings) Craig & Donald were absorbed into The Scottish Machine Tool Corporation in 1939 This lasted till about1980/ish

My scribblong is again too long for Apollo's software    ;D

PART 2.

From memory, i believe Craig & Donald, were an offshoot of another illustrious Johnstone firm, called J. Fyffe Donald ironfounders, (now the site of a supermarket, surprise -- surprise!) J Fyffe Donald used to say , as a firm of ironfounders they were as old as the Carron company The only other West of Scotland ironfoundry firm capable of giving them a run for their money in the geriatric stakes were Moses McCulloch & Co Cumberland foundry Glasgow, So as a firm Craig & Donald were very long established, and much of their castings were still being produced by J.Fyffe Donalds to the last days of manufacture.
    Many of our readers, may have read of the strange tale of the German Nazi high ranking aircraft pilot Rudolph Hess, who flew to Scotland in the early years of the war and crashed at a place called Busby near Glasgow , Very mysterious buisiness ! However he was captured and subsequently questioned at Maryhill Barracks Glasgow, by the head of the home guard, none other than Captain Donald , director of Craig & Donald, Captain Donald had in his young days been an early first world war fighter pilot earning himself The Distinguished Flying order & bar, for extreme bravery in the face of the enemy Captain Donald had lost an eye in his first world war dogfights, he used to come into the firm where i worked, Sorry to go a bit of topic on my post on this most early and illustrious firm, who closed down due to no fault of their own, but due to the decline of the whole shipbuilding & boilermaking trade.

From   HERE   :-

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/shipyard-machinery-circa-1900-a-155286/

------------------

John Costello  author of Ten Days that Saved the World,  in his normal messy way got near to telling you the truth , but again missed the target  (page 8) also Notes page  523    Chapter 1.

Note. 21-2  (notes 21 & 22)

QUOTE.  Letter sent to commanding officer by Graham Donald on notepaper of Graham & Donald Ltd.  Machine Tool Makers, Glasgow, dated  19.5.1941,  in the Misc. Collection of Imperial War Museum London.

Now - I wonder if Costello has just re-cycled this , if he viewed the letter at IWM - then he should have picked up on this ???

----

and  Note 32.

QUOTE.  Letter dated  14 May 1941 from Major Donald to Air Commadore Warrington Morris, reproduced in Woods,  "Attack Warning Red",  op. cit.,  p.263

------

Page  263  -  a full page of small text , interesting reading  (in fact  Appendix 5)

-    it does in fact continue on page 264.  The important part on page 264 is that Maj. Donald does in fact identify the all important  Pilot Officer Malcolm , apparently on leave  ?  - who accompanied Maj. Donald on the night of 10/5/1941 to the EagleSHAM crash site :-

QUOTE.

One other point.  There was one young Officer present in the HG  Headquarters who actually backed up my recognition of Hess as being reasonable.  His name is

Pilot Officer  F.I. Malcolm,  RAF
Army Co Op Squadron
Western Zoyland
Somerset

If consulted, he will undoubtedly bear out my account of the events.

---

I wonder if Costello did as suggested above  ?

Because  -  the author(s) of the Book  DOUBLE STANDARDS  (2001)  Little Brown & Co.   See page  221  wish you to believe it was in fact  one of the Duke of Hamiltons Brothers -  Wing Commander  Lord MALCOLM Douglas-Hamilton.
Their Chapter  "The Capture of Alfred Horn"  -  sub. section   "The Role of Major Donald"     ;D   so much info. correct but again - like the other books so much total rubbish    ;)

So - who has done their homework , from this :-

Was most interested in your article on Craig & Donald Graeme,

This firm was in its day one of Scotlands oldest engineering concerns, and as your catalogue shows specialised in plate working machine tools In the west of Scotland, there were three firms which specialised in plate working plant, vis-- Craig & Donald, Jas Bennie & Co of Glasgow, and Smith & Co of Possil, also Glasgow Occasionally another firm called Crow Hamilton & Co of Glasgow were wont to manufacture the occasional plate working machine tool also, As you possibly know, ( from past postings) Craig & Donald were absorbed into The Scottish Machine Tool Corporation in 1939 This lasted till about1980/ish

From memory, i believe Craig & Donald, were an offshoot of another illustrious Johnstone firm, called J. Fyffe Donald ironfounders, (now the site of a supermarket, surprise -- surprise!) J Fyffe Donald used to say , as a firm of ironfounders they were as old as the Carron company The only other West of Scotland ironfoundry firm capable of giving them a run for their money in the geriatric stakes were Moses McCulloch & Co Cumberland foundry Glasgow, So as a firm Craig & Donald were very long established, and much of their castings were still being produced by J.Fyffe Donalds to the last days of manufacture.
Many of our readers, may have read of the strange tale of the German Nazi high ranking aircraft pilot Rudolph Hess, who flew to Scotland in the early years of the war and crashed at a place called Busby near Glasgow , Very mysterious buisiness ! However he was captured and subsequently questioned at Maryhill Barracks Glasgow, by the head of the home guard, none other than Captain Donald , director of Craig & Donald, Captain Donald had in his young days been an early first world war fighter pilot earning himself The Distinguished Flying order & bar, for extreme bravery in the face of the enemy Captain Donald had lost an eye in his first world war dogfights, he used to come into the firm where i worked, Sorry to go a bit of topic on my post on this most early and illustrious firm, who closed down due to no fault of their own, but due to the decline of the whole shipbuilding & boilermaking trade.

Did you spot :-

another firm called Crow HAMILTON & Co of Glasgow

;)

Interesting to find that the RAF in fact had a hutted camp (known locally as The "Camp" ) at Carluke during WW2 , there was also a hangar type shed for the purpose of recovering serviceable parts of aircraft for re-use.

In fact the hanger was not demolished until as late as March 2008 !

Photographs & info. here :-

http://www.carlukecommunity.org/carlukes-history/19-the-camp

Tried the search facility on main Wiki for Carluke Camp , RAF Carluke etc. - but can't produce anything :-/

Better street directions for finding location on Gookle maps here :-

Original hangar structure had been reclad ;)

http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/194217/details/carluke+airdrie+road+aircraft+recovery+depot/

Often wondered about the identity of this person in this frequently used photograph (almost in every Hess book - caption described as a Scottish Army Captain)

-obviously

at the Carluke RAF 63MU Yard

Two more of the same Captain photographed at the Carluke Yard , with his dog ?

Now , I am putting 2+2 together here and I believe that this Scottish Captain is in fact Assistant Observer Group Officer Major Graham Donald DFC then with the ROC but in fact wearing his regimental uniform from WW1 as a Army Captain ? Whilst in the RFC / RNFS during WW1 as a aviator he lost a foot in air combat with eye injury / lost eye.

Or does the walking stick + eye-patch = 2+2 = 22 ?

Well - here for comparison is the old boy in later years :-

From here :-

http://blog.islayinfo.com/article.php/finlaggan-footprint-stone

;)

In the pics of the young Captain he has his stick in his left hand whereas the old chap has it in his right hand. I have no idea whether this is significant but somehow I find it unlikely that someone who has walked with a stick most of his life would change hands later in life.

Perhaps we need a medical opinion?

True , - best leave that positive ID open ;) The captains kilt tartan does look very dark - possibly the regimental dress can be identified by an expert in such matters, possibly the stick was some sort of swagger stick , standard issue for the rank of captain , I do know that a private in a Scottish regiment during WW1 had a cane for walking out of barracks :)

True , - best leave that positive ID open ;) The captains kilt tartan does look very dark - possibly the regimental dress can be identified by and expert in such matters, possibly the stick was some sort of swagger stick , standard issue for the rank of captain , I do know that a private in a Scottish regiment during WW1 had a cane for walking out of barracks.
Or at least in this regiment privated did - recently read this book :-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Come-On-Highlanders-Glasgow-Territorials/dp/0750942304

:)

Quoted from FordPerfect

True , - best leave that positive ID open ;) The captains kilt tartan does look very dark - possibly the regimental dress can be identified...

We don't know in which regiment the Captain served before becoming a pilot in the Great War of 1914 – 1918, but as a good guess, I'd say the tartan in the early pictures is the tartan of the Black Watch.

Incidentally Ford, other ranks also carried swagger sticks (not to be confsed with walking sticks) at the beginning of WWII.

The old fella's wearing an eyepatch over his left eye in the last picture. Now, if he lost this eye in WWI, it should be visible in the first picture, surely?

Is the cap badge visible at all? Find the regiment and his identity may be narrowed down.

But looking at the tunic, and seeing only three buttons, I'm thinking he's Scots Guards.

A good point about the eye-patch Jimbo, unless one of the pictures is perhaps an inadvertent reflection. I'm a bit doubtful about the uniform being that of the Scots Guards. The Guards do not, did not, wear a dark tartan, and I don't think they ever wore a Tam o' Shanter ( Balmoral ) type head gear. I had another look at the cap badge using a magnifying glass, and I don't think it could be the badge of the Black Watch. The sides appear to be curved rather than square as would be the case for the Black Watch. The only Scottish regiment whose cap badge had/has curved sides as this one appears to have, is the A.& S.H., and their tartan is/was dark although not as dark as this kilt appears to be.

Quoted from The Fox

In the pics of the young Captain he has his stick in his left hand whereas the old chap has it in his right hand. I have no idea whether this is significant but somehow I find it unlikely that someone who has walked with a stick most of his life would change hands later in life.

Perhaps we need a medical opinion?

I use a stick as my left foot is a problem, so being right handed I will change over the stick to the left hand as automatically use the right for most things. As the officer is using his right hand to feel something on the fusilage no surprise he has the stick in his left hand for a while.
He appears to come from Islay, d30/10/1978 Scottish name is Domhnall Gruamach, granted DFC in 05/09/1919 .wife Mary Donald d 06/10/2009.
Not to be confused with a Grahame Donald who was a Air Vice Marshall. ( worth reading his history, he fell out of a Sopworth and regained his seat by falling back into it)
Major Graham Donald was an army captain during WW1. Have not yet found what regiment but would assume a highland one- not connected with the Campbells!
He appears to be missing from the usual lists but a lot of the records were lost during WW2.
Eye patch not suspicious, just old age!

So ,  it is needed that we have a positive identification of the Islay resident  Capt. Graham Donald DFC  is in fact the self & same Major Graham Donald  ROC  (MD of Craig & Donald Ltd  of SMT Corp.)  who was involved with the Hess crash-site at EagleSHAM .

I was aware of the Grahame Donald who was a Air Vice Marshall , very interesting life story too   ;)

I was sort of   :-/  with our man resident of Islay  ,  but concluded that if you were a MD then a residence in Glasgow better suburbs and a bothy on Islay would be realistic , thinking of retirement and well able to afford the ferry-man    :)

Quoted from FordPerfect

So ,  it is needed that we have a positive identification of the Islay resident  Capt. Graham Donald DFC  is in fact the self & same Major Graham Donald  ROC  (MD of Craig & Donald Ltd  of SMT Corp.)  who was involved with the Hess crash-site at EagleSHAM .

I was aware of the Grahame Donald who was a Air Vice Marshall , very interesting life story too   ;)

I was sort of   :-/  with our man resident of Islay  ,  but concluded that if you were a MD then a residence in Glasgow better suburbs and a bothy on Islay would be realistic , thinking of retirement and well able to afford the ferry-man    :)

There was a Graham Donald in the 9th Royal Highlanders 1914-1920 WO372/8
also a Flight Sub Lieut RNAS who passed his Aviators cert 1061 at Hendon 30/01/1915
No record for RFC
Badge could be Cameronian, maybe he was an officer for territorials?

Flosue, I believe the Cameronians was rifle regiment and wore trews rather than kilts. Over and above that, although the badge appears to have 'round' sides, I think it is too long for the Cameronian badge. The badge might pass for that worn by Graham Donald if he was in the 9th Royal Highlanders ( the 9th Black Watch).

I think Graham Donald must have been a Territorials Regiment Officer.

It looks like Sept 1921 he was a Captain - donating £10 to help set up a Ex-servicemans social club whilst Craig & Donald Ltd gave £30.

LIST OF SUBSCRIPTIONS REFFERED TO:

Messrs. John Lang & Sons Ltd. - £100.0.0

Mrs. J. Cunningham - £100.0.0

Messrs. Craig & Donald Ltd. - £30.0.0

Messrs. Thomas Shanks & Co. - £40.0.0

Messrs. J. Fyfe Donald & Co. Ltd - £20.0.0

Messrs. J. MacDowall & Sons - £20.0.0

Messrs. Clifton & Baird - £20.0.0

Messrs. D. Biggart & Sons - £20.0.0

Messrs. Clifton & Waddell - £15.0.0

Colonel Pearson - £10.0.0

Major Connell - £10.0.0

Captain Graham Donald - £10.0.0

Messrs. Loudon Bros. Ltd. - £15.0.0

Captain Biggart - £10.0.0

Mr. W.M. Stevenson - £10.0.0

Messrs. Burrell & Son - £20.0.0

Messrs. Davie & Horn - £10.0.0

Messrs. Dimity Foundry Co. - £10.0.0

Messrs. Linwood Foundry Co. - £10.0.0

Mr. Robert Simpson - £5.0.0

With the generosity of these subscribers coupled with the various money raising activites the Club was soon in a position to seek other premises and this ideal was realised during the month of September 1921.

From here - http://www.usclub.co.uk/about.html

=======

Does the IWM (Imperial War Museum) have a pay for copy service ?

I would like to examine a actual photo-copy of this letter :-

Letter Describing the Capture of Rudolf Hess, May 19410
Fair Use
All Rights Reserved except for Fair Dealing exceptions otherwise permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

Catalogue number Documents.1971
Category private papers All Rights Reserved except for Fair Dealing exceptions otherwise permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

If you are interested in the full range of licenses available for this material, please contact one of our collections sales and licensing teams.
Content descriptionMs letter (2pp), dated 19 May 1941, from Graham Donald of Craig and Donald Ltd, machine tool makers of Johnstone, Glasgow, to Sir Harry Greer describing how on the night of 10 May he...' had the privilege of apprehending him [Hess, after his flight to Scotland], and later in the evening, after checking over his plane, the unusual distinction of being the first (and only) person to identify him as Rudolf Hess... My difficulty lay in getting one sensible individual up here with enough eyesight to bear out my identification!...'
History noteCatalogue date 1992-06
History noteCataloguer RWAS

Me and a number of other members of our model club visited East Fortune airfield and noticed that they had one of the engines from Hess's Me-110.

East Fortune also, it seems, is in posession of one or more tailfins - handed in by a mysterious benefactor from Renfrewshire. One wonders if he had an eyepatch and a walking stick!

The wartime pikey regiment disguise is that good ;D

A first hand account , that appears to be at variance with others from the night at Floors Farm  10/5/1941..
-----
Margaret Baird, the wife of farmer Basil Baird who owned Floor's Farm, wrote about the extraordinary night in a letter to her sister.

In it she says: "I was awoken by the drone of the plane and heard two thuds like gunfire far away... they said they had a German airman, Davy said they had better take him down to the house for a cup of tea. The plane was burning brightly in the Bonnyton field.

"Meanwhile a party of home guards arrived in a motor and were thrilled to hear from Grandpa and Basil that a Jerry was in the cottage.

"We were standing at the side of our garden when he came round, limping pretty badly with about half a dozen home guards with fixed bayonets close to his back."

1.  QUOTE.   "I was awoken by the drone of the plane and heard two thuds like gunfire far away...

--

A.  So  one or two engines still running ,  Margaret Baird hears two thuds like gunfire far away...

IMHO   Margaret Beard would have previously heard Glasgow area AA fire previously  -  she knows military gunfire !  The thuds were not the aircraft crashing or fuel/oil tanks exploding.

B.   QUOTE. they said they had a German airman,

--

So  -  just who were "THEY"   ,  this just does not tally with the "official story" of  David McLean  (Davy)  also
         Davy said they had better take him down to the house for a cup of tea.   This is also proof / witness evidence (not heresay) that the "official story" of David McLean is not based on fact (because we all know that David McLean agrigultural fork with / without - had to assist Rudolf Hess due to injured ankle to his cottage (not the big house of the Baird Family - Floors Farm House).  House or Cottage - it would seem that the first arrest of Rudolf Hess on Scottish soil was NOT by David McLean.  David McLean was Not  "THEY" - period.

=====

SOURCE.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/rudolf-hess-the-enduring-riddle-of-hitlers-1100229

Quoted from flosue

There was a Graham Donald in the 9th Royal Highlanders 1914-1920 WO372/8
also a Flight Sub Lieut RNAS who passed his Aviators cert 1061 at Hendon 30/01/1915
No record for RFC
Badge could be Cameronian, maybe he was an officer for territorials?

================

Ref.  Book History of the Royal Observer Corps.

"Attack Warning Red"  by  Derek Wood.

Page 2.

QUOTE.

Major Donald was typical of so many First World War officers who had gravitated to the Royal Observer Corps.  He had served in the Royal Naval Air Service and later the RAF, retiring in 19919.

;)

Another account, given by David McLean's nephew.

http://www.scottishbanner.com/Editions/Aus_May_11.pdf

Whatever happened to the pitchfork?

http://www.scottishbanner.com/Editions/Aus_July_11.pdf

A comprehensive account by David McLeans nephew, seems to follow the official-line.

I would certainly like to read a full copy of the letter sent by Margaret Baird to her sister ;)

I think East Ren council may have it Ford.

"In a personal reminiscence that we have by Margaret Baird of Floors Farm, she notes that “Davy and his mother are thoroughly fed up with the business…”

http://www.ercblogs.co.uk/portal/2011/05/another-eaglesham-anniversary/

This page also links to John McVicar's, er, interesting memories.

On a completely different tangent, does anyone think that ther may be an occult connection? Bare with me on this...

In the background of the crash pictures is a crop of trees known locally as the Devil's Plantation. Apparently it's still used by witches today, although by witches I may mean swingers! ;D

Naturally, I should also mention a connection to ley lines, Knights Temps (seasonal), and Eric Bell - a link here:

http://webspace.webring.com/people/ea/alignedsites/glasgow-history-test.htm

However, as we all know the Nazis were all mad keen on occult stuff and one wonders, nay, throws into the mix, the sheer speculation that Hess chose his route through occulty ideas.

By the by, I'm no advocate of this stuff. Or indeed this theory. Nor am I postulating that Hess used leys for navigation. Well, not unless there's money in it! ;D

I may have to make a appointment some time with East Ren achivist then ;)

Apparently Hess had been quite into the Thule stuff , when his son was born he requested all the Gauleiter to send a soil sample of their region such that he could blend it all (inc. a Berlin paving slab & dog $hit garden compost) and sit the cot on top. Hess also correctly set his bed alignment by dowsing procedures , he knew the ancients wern't totally stupid - seems EagleSHAM was destinied to have Hess's hand made flying boots impinge in the soil of floors farm

:)

Quoted from jimbo

East Fortune also, it seems, is in posession of one or more tailfins - handed in by a mysterious benefactor from Renfrewshire. One wonders if he had an eyepatch and a walking stick!

Indeed they do , looks like I need to make a prior appointment to view ;)

Mr XXXXX,

Thank you very much for your email. We do indeed still have one of the two engines from Hess’ Bf 110 on display. This is in our hangar of military aircraft, Hangar 1.

We have a number of other Hess-associated items, although these are unfortunately not on display at present. These include the skin from one of the tailplanes as well as an ROC plot of the route Hess flew across southern Scotland.

Thanks again for your email. I am sorry that the tailplane panel and ROC map are not on display but I hope you enjoy your visit nonetheless.

Ian Brown

Assistant Curator, Aviation

National Museum of Flight

East Fortune Airfield

East Lothian EH39 5LF

Tel +44 (0) 131 247 4201

e-mail [email protected]

http://www.nms.ac.uk

We want pictures and measurements!

And that sentence reads like a request to a gentleman's magazine. ;D

I was up with the model club and took many pictures. Unfortunately my camera is a lowly 3.2mp digital. I'm waiting on a new transfer lead to put them on PC. One of the pictures was of Hess's aircrafts engine. If anyone is interested in any pics I'd be happy to share them assuming they turn out okay.

Anyone who hasn't been, its a decent little museum. It probably pales compared to the likes of Duxford or Cosford, but its got some nice touches like the Parachute store and the Concorde exhibition.

Yes, would like to see them , in particular fin(s) and any airframe parts ;)

DROP-TANKS.
=========

Quote.

At 22:10 hours, the lone ME110 approached the coast of Northumberland at an approximate height of 2,000ft. jettisoning its underwing fuel tanks close to the Holy Island,

From here :-

http://www.roc-heritage.co.uk/1940s-into-war.html

Mentioned also Prologue page 1. of Attack Warning Red by Dereck Wood.  (in fact the web site info. seems uplifted from this book)

There are mentions of tanks being fished out of the North Sea and Clyde estury.

The N.E. coast of England (Northumberland) was well covered with look-out posts of all descriptions - this was probably well observed at the time.

In the words of Hess at this point in time (book - Prisoner of Peace) , he stated he observed a destroyer escorted convoy near Holy Island so did a jig to his course to avoid any gun-fire.
-----

Probably the best source of info. for Bf110 petrol tanks is the book  :-

The Flight of Rudolf Hess : Myths and Reality by  Roy Conyers Nesbit an Georges van Acker.
Page 94 gives a Messerschmitt factory drawing showing the release system.
This seems a bell-crank lever system from grip for release of petrol tanks(pilots position)  Page. 95 Lever for jettisonable oil tank - at crew position (states - a lever on the left side of second crew member's compartment).
The Appendix 1  pages 162 + 163 gives further info.

What the authors are indicating is that both tanks were dropped at the same time , obviously to keep the plane in trim, likewise fuel was transferred to main tanks in a progressive manner from both drop tanks for same reason.  This is explained in full.

HOWEVER.  I must point out , if you wish to read all about this , obtain the original 1999 first publication - NOT the 2011 edn. paperback re-print - AS YOU WILL NOT FIND IT ALL.

I did mention several weeks ago - this paperback slipped in the very dodgy map titled :-

Dungavel House and its grass airfield in 1941.  (Extract from map supplied by the Hamilton Estate).

Why was this map was slipped in and other important info. omitted   :-/

===

HOWEVER - GETTING BACK TO THE POINT IN ISSUE.

I refer to the book by Chris Goss (published 2011)  Luftwaffe Fighters & Bombers.

The account by a actual Bf110 pilot  Leutnant Konrad Wacker , 2(F)/122  - flying his Bf110 on a reconnaissance flight to the Rolls Royce Factory at Derby.

Page  365 - what this pilot states -

By the time I dropped my tanks (one after the other) , one of the engines had been hit.

So it seems the pilot had two release levers, this being the case - reports of a drop tank belonging Hess's Bf110 could be correct for both the English east (Northumberland) coast AND the Scottish coast (area of Clyde estury).

=====

I suppose all the Hess books and this thread is regarding :-

1.  (a) Did Hess fly with Hitlers approval / order  ?   (b)   Have armed escort to British Coast.

I have come to the conclusion that the flight plan originating from page 18 of the book  The Case of Rudolf Hess by  J.R. Rees. and often replicated with the story of the 1 hour wasted over the North Sea until the ambient light decreased was pure fiction by Hess.   IMHO - Hess had fighter escort to meet up with one or two other Bf110 from Stavanger , these aircraft had expert navigators to get Hess as far as the Longstone Lighthouse (Farne Islands).  I have established - his lighthouse was in fact in full use during WW2 , it may have been shrouded lower  &/or with reduced output.  This would account for Hess's flight being thereafter classed as "Split-Raid" 42.  Hess would have (as he stated dived down) - this would be to mast-height where he would be certain of seeing the Longstone light.

On his own for sight navigation (as he recorded) and ROC observations verify ,  he would have aimed for West Kilbride (known to be below the height of ROC post)  , down low again to mast-height steering south to look for I presume the lighthouse at Lady Isle off Troon (still need to confirm operational during WW2) , wheel east for Prestwich or more likely Dungavel.

PART 2.

2.  The question of Hess's very accurate navigation to get over Dungavel first time that he did , possibly he was assisted by other methods that he kept secret ?

3.  I don't think Hess's intention was ever to parachute , he would know that was end of mission. He needed a guide plane(s) , he could not trust a Defiant, Spitfire or Hurricane -  BUT in the low light he could trust a pair of wingmen in Tiger Moths (plenty available) The Duke of Hamilton had - and his share in the Prestwich flying school had !

4.  Something went wrong with his guide , possibly Hess did not throttle right back & missed them.  Plan B.  fly to coast confirm lighthouse and make second approach.

5.  For a Bf110 to go down to mast height over the Clyde "Roads" in WW2 would be a very silly thing to do , imagine all the hundreds of ships forming up for convoys or anchored awaiting docking.  Most of them trooped with machine gunners trained in aircraft recognition in all weather/light conditions -  that is where he probably picked up a few bullet holes in his tail-finn and probably engine(s) - end off mission.

====

6.   "The Peace Party"  awaiting ,  very probably Royalty and the aristocratic British Faschists ,Churchill had difficulty banging up all the top level traitors  "Privy Councillors" + all the others running with the fox and the hounds   ;)

The book  "Double Standards" had no trouble outing most of them by any tenuous link , tenuous - yes , but there is such a link  (I did leave a clue).

There could be a few more issues - this I am researching along with others.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-528720/How-Eton-educated-wartime-Aga-Khan-offered-30-000-armed-Arabs-help-Hitler--evaded-treason-trial.html

:)

I think, viz Hess' journey, the singularity of the denoement overshadows the rather mundane nature of the event. Yes I'll need to stop watching those Jeremy Brett, Sherlock Holmes repeats.

In translation, one major factor has yet to be mentioned as influential: there was a war on.

From here, http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/04/black-saturday/306706/, "The bombers would come back for 76 of the next 77 nights, and the Luftwaffe’s steady campaign against London would continue until the final and bloodiest attack of the Blitz, on May 10, 1941." [My italics]

Given that the authorities/Fighter Command may be concerned about invasion, further attacks etc, would they really concern themselves with one sole raider over a, relatively, isolated part of the country. This I believe, this need for vigilence, must explain Hess' uninterrupted flight.

And, again given, the big attack on London, why couldn't Hess either piggybank onto a bomber squadron for navigation or, indeed, use the Germans radio wave navigation thing... can't remember its name.

But the big attack is important. If Hess knew it was planned, and he was deputy Fuhrer, then he must have seen it for the incredible opportunity that it was.

Maybe!

Was  Rudold Hess a  "Anthroposophist"     :-/

More to the point - has a "Anthroposophist" lived in Scotland before , during WW2 or since   ;D

--

QUOTE

The book  :-

The Secret Lives of  Trebitsch Lincoln
by  Bernard Wasserstein.  Yale University Press.  (1988)

Don't go running for this book - Hess is only mentioned the once at page  279

Ribbentrop was helped by a peculiar accident of timing which dashed the prospects for Trebitsch's scheme of mystic intervention in the high politics of Nazi Germany.  On 10 May 1941, just a few days before Meisinger's message reached Berlin , the Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess,  abruptly flew on his abortive peace mission to Scotland.  Police investigations after his departure revealed that Hess had been a  "silent adherrent"  of the doctrines of the  "anthroposophists" ,that he had close associations with "astrologers,seers, mediums, nature therapists and so forth"  , and that he had undertaken his flight on astrological advice.   etc.  etc.  etc.  (you know the rest of the story)

--

http://www.defendingsteiner.com/pers/Hess.php

=================

Amd. 1    (11.45 am  on  22/9/2012)

THIS person has not moved or deleted this image   ;)

For the benefit of Forum followers - I showed 3 qty. pages from this book :-

The Secret Lives of  Trebitsch Lincoln
by  Bernard Wasserstein.  Yale University Press.  (198

--

Don't go running for this book - Hess is only mentioned the once at page  279

So - if you missed it - then you will have to go get the book   :P

---

Who are the  "Higher Powers" following this thread or PhotoBucket    ;)

For the only OFFICIAL map of the  "Grass Airfield"  /  ELG  ,,  then I could upload to Photobucket again and display here the map that is  Fig. 26 with description :-

Dungavel House and its grass airfield 1941.  (extract from map supplied by the Hamilton Estate)

Above is Fig. 25  with description cross-ref. to Martin Allens book

NB.  I will try and show a photograph of the page AGAIN in this thread - I believe that my Photobucket account will yet again be hacked into and totally messed around and it will go within 24 hours   ;)

---

The map only appears in the  PAPERBACK  re-print   Edition published in 2011 :-

The flight of Rudolf Hess  Myths and Reality

Roy Conyers Nesbit and George Van Acker

-----

IMHO the authors were compromised into further enquiry as a result of the Martin Allen Book ,  I have seen the aerial photograph in another book since but it was inverted.

The map - the only source that I know :-

BOOK..  The Flight of Rudolf Hess: Myths and Reality by Roy Conyers Nesbit and Georges Van Acker

The map is not in the original 1999 hardback that I have,  I am aware of other re-print dates of Paperback.

So , I repeat - to be certain look at rear of first page for -   This edition first published 2011

===

Then ask yourself  /  make a site visit   - would you make this limited area a ELG for crippled aircraft to make a approach run , that depending on wind direction would involve flying over the only buildings in the area The Estate Kennels and the huge Dungavel Mansion    ;D

Going back to mid-May  2012 , I tried to show some photographs from a modified edition of a book ,  paperback (not in the original 1999 Hardback book) :-

For the only OFFICIAL map (that I know of presently) of the  "Grass Airfield"  /  ELG  (emergency landing ground)

Dungavel House and its grass airfield 1941.  (extract from map supplied by the Hamilton Estate)

Above is Fig. 25  with description cross-ref. to Martin Allens book

So - I will try and show a photograph(s)  of the book details & page AGAIN in this thread - I believe that my Photobucket account will yet again be hacked into and totally messed around and it will go within 24 hours

Strange is it not,  when I check my computer  "my pictures" they are auto camera dated so I know where they should be , yet not there.  These are more fresh photographs taken again today   ;D

---

The map only appears in the  PAPERBACK  re-print   Edition published in 2011 that I am aware of  (there are other paperback dated editions I am aware of but not checked them out) :-

The flight of Rudolf Hess  Myths and Reality

Roy Conyers Nesbit and George Van Acker

Now ask yourself , who would create a WW2 RAF ELG where aircraft in distress would be expected to land on such a small area , a emergency landing ground would be chosen with a much larger ground area for safe landing irrespective of the direction of the wind-sock. A pilot would not be expected in such circumstances to fly over the top of the Estate Kennel properties, RAF hangars and the Dungavel shooting lodge mansion IMHO

;)

I notice on the Google aerial pics that there is a similarly shaped patch of wood land at Dungavel and at Longwood Decoy site. Could Longwood have been a decoy for the airfield at Dungavel?

Well, here you are...

A detailed account of Hess' arrival in Scotland, how he used radio beams to nagivate, how hew tracked on radar from them moment he arrived, and how three Spitfires were despatched to intercept him.

Pity things fall apart with the last bit - since the never found him.

Ah well...

It was nice to think the mysteries were all solved for a minute, and someone had the story 'done and dusted' :P

Enjoy...

(And that's NOT my typo in the link - I have automated cut/paste/format for all the links I enter in the Forum. It really does say his flight to... England ;D )

RUDOLPH HESS - his "flight" to England - BOCAGE NORMANDE

The field was recently mentioned in the AiX forum:

Dungavel Aerodrome

Quoted from Apollo

The field was recently mentioned in the AiX forum:

Dungavel Aerodrome

====

States "Relief Landing Ground" most sources inc. Canmore state "Emergency Landing Ground" - a subtle difference ;)

Which is correct :-/

Ref. earlier post of  September 19, 2012, 8:21pm , I have had to place a Amd.   :-

Amd. 1    (11.45 am  on  22/9/2012)

THIS person has   NOT  moved or deleted this image   ;)

For the benefit of Forum followers - I showed 3 qty. pages from this book :-

The Secret Lives of  Trebitsch Lincoln
by  Bernard Wasserstein.  Yale University Press.  (198

--

Don't go running for this book - Hess is only mentioned the once at page  279

So - if you missed it - then you will have to go get the book   :P

---

Who are the  "Higher Powers" following this thread or PhotoBucket    ;)

Try Photobucket again , to further the interests of historical research ;)

See what happens & how soon ;)

There are most certainly events that happened immediately after Hess landed by parachute at Floors Farm - never clarified..

This is best described in the book  :-

The Flight of Rudolf Hess: Myths and Reality

by

Georges Van Acker, Roy Conyers Nesbit

---

Best read - regarding the Iron Cross that was the property of Rudolf Hess , and how (unexplained)  it became the "possession" of a individual.  Apparently Wolf Rudiger Hess tried to recover this Iron Cross for his family ,  (so it seems the provenance was accepted).

It does seem a fair assumption that Hess would take with him to Scotland a present of importance/value for his intended host - The Duke of Hamilton.

So - there is the matter of this - truth / fiction  -  I don't know , however best it is recorded here too..

http://www.scribd.com/doc/100586245/The-Lebor-Feasa-Runda

;)

http://leborfeasarunda.weebly.com/history.html

Hess inspired fantasy...

I tend to have some OTR (old time radio) streaming in the background most of the time - OTR generally refers to radio broadcasting from the golden age of radio, mostly before 1964, and covers shows from the pre-television age include adventure, comedies, mystery shows, western dramas, and shows from World War II. They are considered to feature the best talent of the day and were broadcast almost as widely as cable programs today.

Although I didn't actually hear the following by this method, it was announced as being "Next week's presentation" - back in 1942 of course.

The series is 'Lights Out' and the genre is 'Mystery' - this is Episode 21; Airdate: February 23, 1943:

They Met At Dorset.

Unsure of his location, the German rescue mission tries to free Rudolf Hess from his English captors but are. Thinking they have found the house, they are surprised to find people laughing inside. When they asked for him, the party denies holding him so they decided to murder all the English occupants.

Listen or download:

They Met At Dorset | Radio XEXS

Lights Out | Mystery | Old Time Radio Downloads

Note the date, 1943, so the war was still on and no signs of an end.

Don's miss the appeal for war bonds that follows the end of the play.

Just now , I am trying to find something on the internet  circa. abt. 1971  ,  a German pilot (historical researcher) , the aircraft ISTR was a Cessna 172.  Whilst recreating Hess's flight (IIRC it was a 30 year time gap).  He clipped a tree at Dungavel , grounded the aircraft and was arrested by the local constabulary.  While since I read this and it does have photographs.  He would clip a tree if he attempted a landing on the landing ground map - if it was provided by the Hamilton Estates.

Just meed more time for Goooogling , I will turn it out - as it is all part of the story to date..

====

However , in the Gooogling process , I came across this,  scroll down read page 32.  I need more time to study this - it seems this magazine article has a bit more info. that Roy Nesbit has not stated in any editions of his books to date  (the GAP info.).

--

Aeroplane Monthly

Aprill  2005

Vol. 33  No. 4  Issue No.  384  (available from start of March 2005)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/95275778/Aeroplane-2005-04

----

Apollo  ,  I will listen to the fiction whilst perusal of this mag. info. later when I have more time

;)

I will store this (in case can't find it again) , need more time to peruse / study this theory ;D

http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=207&t=9760

OMG!

They write better stories than JK Rowling ;D

But then again, my cat can write better stories than JK Rowling :(

Not many thingies left unanswered , job sorted :)

;)

http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=207&t=9760

The para. I like , I realy like , so near - so very near ;)

QUOTE.

From then on Major Graham Donald acted as though this was the real Hess, although he knew otherwise. This was part of the stitch-up, as was confusion over the name Horn, when Horn was on the other flight. Major Graham Donald remained complicit to the German-English Freemasonry agreements and SOI operations. When he met with the next interrogator, Major Graham Donald once again identified ‘Captain Alfred Horn’ as “Rudolf Hess” when he knew damned well he was the doppelganger Hess they had been expecting.

;D

If - and it's a big IF - I follow the chappie's story...

It's a good one to use as an example for the warning that if you are going to tell lies, then you had better have a good memory - 'cos instead of merely recalling what happened, you're going to have to remember all the details of the story you're weaving, exactly, and get them right, first time, every time.

:)

Still unable to find the original story I have previously read about the re-creation flight (there were 3 or 4 photographs) , seems it was to where Hess landed by parachute (Waterfoot / Busby area) . Uncertain now if they also flew to Dungavel , at least I know I had not dreamed it up ;)

http://www.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-000-535-268-C&scache=5an842eq2m&searchdb=scran

=====

Just got around to checking SeSco :o

Seems the flight was made in 1968.

QUOTE SeSco

In 1968, a recreation of the Hess landing at Waterfoot near Busby by Professor Berthold Rubin and Willi Shubert was reported by The Scotsman newspaper, which featured a photograph of the occasion. This information is located on the SCRAN site, where a subscription is required in order to gain access to the full size image and details.

Also

http://thescotsmanpublications.newsprints.co.uk/view/20366870/603321_jpg

Now I have the names to Google on , finding more , it seems the Prof. parachuted into a tree (not the aircraft clipping the tree) :-

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19680513&id=tG1AAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pqMMAAAAIBAJ&pg=6775,2169864

There is a fair amount on the internet about the involvement of  Ian Bailey , regarding the arrival of Rudolf Hess.

This is probably as good as it gets  :-

QUOTE..

On the 12th May - note the date

http://www.h2g2.com/entry/A13063781

Now why does  Ian Bailey  make a point of -  On the 12th May - note the date   ,   24 hours -  I could pontificate but not  48 hours     :-/

Unless  ,  he is saying something that he shouldn't    ;)

http://advicetothelovelorn.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/when-hess-came-to-scotland.html

------

Read Ian's full account of his meeting with Hess HERE :-

http://advicetothelovelorn.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/hess-story-in-ians-own-words.html

;)

Ford, I read all of Ian's story and I thoroughly enjoyed it--- I believe it all. Oh just a wee minute, I'm not sure about the mention of the headlines in the newspaper on the following Tuesday. I would have said on the Monday. At one time I said it was on the Sunday, but someone corrected this to Monday.

Apparently Rudolf Hess was of half Greek blood, confirmed (or possibly not-confirmed - if you can read Greek)   ;)

http://ethniko.net/blog/rudolf-hess-greek/

---

So

Rudolf Walter Richard  Georgiadis Hess   ;D

This does raise a few considerations ,  I doubt if Hess considered himself a mischling , or did he   :-/

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KKEYVtatY4IC&pg=PA236&lpg=PA236&dq=hess+doppelganger&source=bl&ots=vKykuuRJX7&sig=h64cQwbVQf5Dtky0nbSUokKpMeg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ErGmUOnLL8aS0QX6ooGwBw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBDgU#v=onepage&q=hess%20doppelganger&f=false

Scroll down and read on for a partial compilation of the normal hotchpotch you will read spread over all the Hess books. However there are copies of two interesting letters , that I have read before (probably on the internet) as I don't think they are included in any dedicated Hess Flight book I have read ;)

Ok ,  I became interested in this book and what was on the pages about Hess after 237 (not shown in preview).

I found out that the book goes for little more than the postage, and mint condition obtained    ;)

Strange book it is , the author seems very strange too .  The book it as totally unorganised compilation of disparate subjects , Rudolf Hess being one of them.  The book has over 525 pages and is a weighty tome , many photographs of newspaper headlines etc.  I think for photographic reproduction the printers used thin oil rolled paper.  In the late 1970's I had to go to a paper mill near Penicuik where this was produced using heat & steam at the rolls , very interesting too , IIRC somebody said it was the only mill in Scotland or Britain making oiled paper.

Back to the book,  yes - I believe there is something new that I don't believe I have read before on page 254 , it seems to originate from Wolf Rudiger Hess according to page 253.   Better if it was a photograph of the original , however I don't doubt its provenance.

                  This is part of the Hess story that I know the standard story to be inaccurate, something that I am researching, this is just thrown in by-the-bye.

=============

Back to the book, pleased I purchased , much of interest to read inc. a large quantity about Germans (Nazis) and WW2. Often on the Hess Flight , specialist books , many I sort of can't agree with esp. the doppleganger / Double (or not in full). However these authors often during their research find something previously unknown.

As I say , strange book and author , presently I have a few lines of Hess puzle research - just a matter of time until I post up more. Things just don't stack up with the orthodox government inspired story from after Hess apparently parachuted out ;) The need is to keep an open mind ;)

There is certainly more to this saga than meets the eye! My recollection of media output around the time Hess died was that it was the Russians that wanted him kept in Spandau indefinitely and that Britain wanted to release him.

I never understood why he was regarded as such a serious war crime perpetrator - he only served in 2 years of a 6 year war.

Probably Hess was punished as being the Deputy to Hitler, albeit during the war as stated two years. Also the Russians would be after their pound of fleash.
Always thought Speer was treated lightly, and when much was revealed in later years, he should have faced the ultimate penalty.

Hess remained totally silent throughout , although the British probably extracted what he knew about Operation Barbarosso (that they probably knew in any case)  AND what he knew of / were the Japanese intentions of attacking the USA.

Whilst in Spandou , Hess hardly revealed anything to Bird (check the books) .   Of the other banged up Nazis in Spandau , anything additional to be made known would probably have been stated by Hess to Speer only.  I have not read any of Speer's writings    ;)

Hess ,  did seem to bring some documentation with him on his last flight (read all the books)  ,  probably his suggestion of negotiations that could be signed by all parties that he needed before his return flight.  The important point is this - did Hess arrive in Scotland with a document (missing since) that was in fact a REPLY to earlier secret negotiations,  after all required signatures to a Final British document - Hess would then intend to fly home to his Feuhrer in total triumph and receive the awards   ;)

Yes the Allies knew about Barbarossa. Enigma apart, we were reading the Nazis' Wermacht, Luftwaffe, High Command and Diplomatic codes. Uncle Joe, I think, was alerted but his response was complete disbelief. Stalin's distrust of Britain never wavered. Comintern agents operated against us all through the war. Churchill, on the other hand, discontinued operations, radio monitoring etc against Russia because it was spying on an ally.

As to Hess only serving in 2 years of a 6 year war...

That's disingenuous surely? Hess was imprisoned with Adolf in, what, 1923? Was Hitler's secretary. Was the scribbler of the Fuhrer's dictation of Mein Kampf.

Make no mistake, Hess was heavily involved in the rise of Nazism and thus, by implication, War and The Holocaust.

"Make no mistake, Hess was heavily involved in the rise of Nazism and thus, by implication, War and The Holocaust".

Jimbo, I think Hess might well have had something to do with the rise of the Nazi political party, but not for one minute do I believe he had anything to do with the slaughter of Jews. This crime, not really a part of the war, did not start until he was a prisoner in the UK., and to include him in this is away beyond any implication arrived at from his relationship with the Nazi Party.

I agree with The Fox, and "... never understood why he [Hess] was regarded as such a serious war crime perpetrator - he only served in 2 years of a 6 year war".

Good grief...

Don't you know Hitler was ant-Semitic from day one, and rising to power in 1933 was the opening of the flood gates for his killings.

Just because he did not have the luxury of the war to cover his murders does not mean he was not orchestrating the deaths of Jews at every opportunity.

Hess was his deputy from day one also - and basically endorsed everything the man he idolised said.

By which I also mean he signed or countersigned the documents that sealed the fate of many,

It's unfortunate I cannot now recall the name of a woman who was able to have her diaries and photographs exhibited in Kelvingrove about 12 years ago.

A Jewess, she started documenting atrocities in 1933 - and all I can say now is that this exhibition was a real eye-opener for me, as until then, I believed that the Hitler and his Nazis only began their killing in earnest once the war let them mechanise it.

Far from it.

I'm afraid one part of your history is sadly lacking - and I am surprised, given what we have covered in the past.

Hess got the sentence he deserved - in terms of the war crimes trial in Nuremberg.

Hess was not regarded as a serious war (and I emphasis the word 'war') crimes perpetrator, and that's why he did not hang.

But he was a great victim to keep in prison. A handy tool for the Allies to argue about and fight over since they did not agree about his fate.

It's just unfortunate in some ways that he lived so long, and couldn't stick it for a little longer, and killed himself to end his persecution.
He was indeed out of the picture by 1941 - not only by dint of his flight to Scotland, but because Hitler had new favourites, and his position as deputy has become one title only, as he had begun to become 'odd' even then, and not of the value he had been to Hitler in the past years.

The main position of Rudolf Hess was a political position "Deputy to the Führer" , now (as was once explained to me) - a certain person had the position of "Assistant to the Managing Director" , although he walked around (and talked the talk) as if his position was in fact "Assistant / Deputy Managing Director" ;) . This was all explained to me when I was somehow seconded as chauffeur to the MD , in between his ranting of how a accelerator pump wasted petrol , but I knew the bigger bollacking would have been if he missed his flight ;D

Hess - he did take care in the choice / rank of Luftwaffe uniform that he used on his flight to Scotland ;)

Quoted from Dugald

"Make no mistake, Hess was heavily involved in the rise of Nazism and thus, by implication, War and The Holocaust".

Jimbo, I think Hess might well have had something to do with the rise of the Nazi political party, but not for one minute do I believe he had anything to do with the slaughter of Jews. This crime, not really a part of the war, did not start until he was a prisoner in the UK., and to include him in this is away beyond any implication arrived at from his relationship with the Nazi Party.

I agree with The Fox, and "... never understood why he [Hess] was regarded as such a serious war crime perpetrator - he only served in 2 years of a 6 year war".

========

From the moment Hess landed in Scotland , Churchill wanted him kept for a War Crimes Trial (historically such a Trial was something new). They tried to nail him for more at Nuremburg , this extra page shows the result ;)

That book appears to be written by David Irving.

There's not really any place for his material in anything being discussed by anyone being serious about researching Rudolf Hess (or anything to do with the war.)

He is a discredited historian, a Revisionist, and a Holocaust denier.

You should find something reliable to quote material from - not anything with his name against it.

Even if he is quoting something, I would not believe him/it.

The author Stephen Richards up-lifted that info. from a book published by David Irving and then credited him at the bottom of the page. That is why I only showed the page to the left yesterday ;)

However - I believe the tabulated info. on the right hand page is in fact correct and could have been obtained from books by authors other than David Irving ;)

I see :)

It was just alarming to see the name at the foot of the page.

When I was digging back in 2004, and did not know any of the authors from Adam, I was taken in by Irving as he gives away his stuff for free online, making it easy to get to.

It was only after doing some more research and finding his name come up for near constant negative criticism, and then reveals of how much his stuff was made up or spun, that I realised I was being taken for a ride.

And was not happy.

It's unfortunate that he is able to write his material in a credible style, and can take in the unwary or unfamiliar (or faithful, that believe his stuff.)

I simply would not believe him if he told me it was daytime and the Sun was shining :(

I was half watching Episode 6, Part 1 of "Winds of War" last night when Hess's flight was mentioned.

They seemed to suggest that the flight was pre-arranged and that was an enactment of something from Mein Kamph.

I started reading MK a while ago but unfortunately gave up so I cannot comment further. What we need is someone who has read the book!

Otherwise one of us is going to have to plough through the damned thing in case there is something in it.

I have not read Mein Kampf as yet, so can't help. I nearly purchased what is known as the Ford translation. However - I was reliably informed that the James Murphy or Manheim translation was the one to go for (I have a eMail saved on this , however he gave no good reason). In the end - I purchased another book I wanted to read "Hitlers Table Talk" - unfortunately I have not had time in months to get it out of the box and read it ;)

-----

btw , similar problem with choice of editions and translations with HTT , I decided on the authorship by Martin Borman as I understand it is a more complete works.

Mr. Silverman

Unfortunately, in modern propaganda the art of lying has become highly developed everywhere. What we are dealing with to-day is not anybody's lying or anybody's imagination, but what is a fact.

----

The Minister of Home Security, speaking at Hackney, in his own constituency, said that he would give a few hard facts about Hess. He said: "Hess, Hitler's right-hand man, is, like the rest of them, a brutal thug, whose hands, like his master's, are stained with some of the worst political crimes of modern times. Hess takes his share of guilt for the murder of hundreds of his comrades in 1934. So highly did Hitler think of his peculiar capacities that he made it his task to out-Gestapo the Gestapo. This gangster is now in our hands. He is going to stay in our hands. It does not matter what kind of animal he is: whether he is Rat No. 1 or a Trojan horse, or just a baby panda sent over in the hope of finding innocents over here to play with, he is caged. Whatever his reasons for coming here the German people, to put it mildly, are very much shaken by the whole episode." The Lord Chancellor made a speech to a similar effect. But on another occasion the Minister of Labour expressed a view in public about this man. He did not seem to agree with the Minister without Portfolio, who thought that Hess's oming here showed signs of chipping in the Nazi edifice. On the contrary, the Minister of Labour said: "I do not believe that this gentleman came here without Hitler's knowledge." That is a very different story. Those, of course, are the speeches of the great, of members of the Government. The principle of collective Cabinet responsibility does not seem to have been followed in any exaggerated degree in the preparation of those statements, if they were prepared. But, of course, a host of other people have had things to say about this matter. It was said on one occasion, through the Ministry of Information, that the Duke of Hamilton had received a letter from Hess a month before his arrival here, and I think the statement implied, or asserted, that he had replied to it. That statement was subsequently withdrawn, and it was said that he had not had a letter, and had not replied. Another statement that I read recently in the Press—and presumably the Minister of Information knew of it—was that on a previous occasion, when Hess was on a diplomatic mission on behalf of the German Government in Madrid, he had telephoned to someone whom he knew in Gibraltar to inquire what would happen to him if he were to fly from Madrid to Gibraltar. Apparently, according to this report, he was told that, if he did try, he would be shot down, and for that or for some other reason he 889 evidently decided not to make the venture, and he did not arrive in Gibraltar.

SOURCE.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1941/jun/19/rudolf-hess

-----

Hansard of the day is always going to be a good sound source of what was in the public domain at that time ;)

Note - the important date of 1934 , however this was well pre-WW2 , and a internal matter of German sovereignty.

==========

Regarding the actual Title / position(s) that Rudolf Hess held during WW2 , I am going to RETRACT my statement of a couple days ago, I now recall having difficulty in determining the truth of this matter once before. It is all too easy to get mixed up with Nazi party and German governmental positions , it would take "best authorities" to resolve this issue.

Ref. my posting of  21/11/2012.

Regarding the book :-

"Crime through Time" by Stephen Richards.

In particular the letter - page 254
The British Broadcasting Corporation   20/5/1941

The author claims this as UNDISCOVERED and UNPUBLISHED letter.

----

Now going back to my previous post and that recorded by Hansard on  19th June 1941   :-

Unfortunately, in modern propaganda the art of lying has become highly developed everywhere. What we are dealing with to-day is not anybody's lying or anybody's imagination, but what is a fact.

There is no better comment..

Now I have had better time to study the book  Crime through Time , briefly it is more about a actual BLACK MUSEUM in the West Countyr.  the author is a respected PRESS CRIME REPORTER.

Something makes me think I have seen the BBC letter  20/5/1941  ,  this is giving me a problem in finding it again ,,

Was it in :-

1.  Double Standards by Lynn Picknet etc.
2.  10 days that saved the World by Costello
3.  Peter Padfields Book.
4.  Free download of David Irving's book Hess: The Missing Years.    (I may add - the only works I have ever read by the Holocaust Denier David Irving)

or one of the Hess comic books   :-/

:o

Good retraction :)

Saved me some effort in countering the original, as it seems you've read a lot about the flight, but not about the career of Hess once in power post 1933 and Hitler's ascendancy to Reich Chancellor.

I was going to mention Martin Bormann, who was Hitler's private secretary, and some claim was in many respects more powerful at large, as anyone that wanted to get to the Fuhrer had to go through him first. Bormann eventually became Hitler's 'view' of reality, and relied on him to keep him informed, so he was even able to influence Hitler.

And he was in control of the money ;)

But I don't think there would be any need to say it that one could get 'mixed up' regarding "Nazi party and German governmental positions".

The Nazis were the fascist party and were the party in power, the party in government, so their positions were their positions in government.

So even the idea that a secretary (Bormann) had no real power would not be true, even compared to that of Deputy Fuhrer (Hess).

Returning to topic...

The flight of Hess to Britain in May of 1941 resulted in the creation of a clear path for Bormann to become Head of the Party Chancellery (Parteikanzlei) that very month. And he know how to exploit that position, as he was a master of intricate political infighting - something easy to do since Hitler issued his orders verbally, and was erratic. It is a measure of just how effective he (Bormann) was at this, as he was able to make enemies of Joseph Goebbels, Hermann Göring, Heinrich Himmler, Alfred Rosenberg, Robert Ley, Albert Speer and a host of other high-ranking officers and officials in both public and private spheres by constantly and effectively checking their progress, yet they did not dare act against him, such was his level of trust with Hitler.

Hess could not have left Germany at a better time.

Maybe it was a Bormann conceived and financed flight, to get rid of Hess with no comeback (from something like an assassination or murder) to clear his path to power.

I find my suggestion far more credible that all this doppelgänger nonsense, and stories about the Hamiltons etc.

The answer is normally in the form of :-

Rudolf Walter Hess official title before he left Germany was deputy Fürher, other wise known as Stellvertreter des Führers.

=====

However , ISTR the difficulty is with the Stellvertreter because we don't quite have a English language translation for the word and it does not fully equate to Deputy.

Also IIRC , when Borman was made Deputy , he did not have the title of Stellvertreter. Hess was the very last Stellvertreter ;)

DOH ! forgot , Hess also was Reich Minister without Portfolio , some say this was a figurehead position. Yet it seems not because Hess was the head of a very large organisation with many departments , obviously the most important legislation had his signature but much was by understudy. ;)

Was Bormann made deputy?

Hitler nominated Goring as his deputy after Hess disappeared in 1941.

And then fired him (and I think ordered that he be shot just to emphasis the point) in 1945, when he tried to assume power over the Reich when the troops were closing in on the fuhrerbunker.

Ah ,  well this is where it gets a bit complex , depends what & where you read.

When Hitler came to power in 1933 he appointed Bormann as national organizer of the party.

In 1942 Bormann became Hitler's secretary and was given the post of deputy fuehrer.

;)

There was always a lot of bitching between Herman Goring , Hess, & others . When it was announced as Goring to be successor as Fuhrer (in the event of Hitler being dead) , Hitler at the same time stated Rudolf Hess would be next in line to Goring.  I have read of this in many books that Goring did not like the situation , Hitlers stock reply was to the effect of  -  if I am dead then you will be Fuhrer and then you can do whatever you wish (the implication that on rise to power as Fuhrer , then he could immediately de-rank Hess well away from leadership role).  So - Hess had the importance whilst Hitler was alive , I doubt if many people knew of this at the time , is it correct ??

I would have to check a couple of books ,  Ilse Hess hated Bormans guts ,  I believe it was a post WW2 comment of hers that whilst Borman may have been Deputy - he was never Stellvertreter as was her husband.

I gave up at the time trying to work it all out   ;)

Unpublished - SECRET ;D

Secret Cabinet (Panel)

If you can believe Wiki

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_He%25C3%259F&prev=/search%3Fq%3DStellvertreter%2Bhess%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3Dzec%26tbo%3Dd%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26channel%3Dnp&sa=X&ei=laKvUISUE46N0wWpsoHYBg&ved=0CDcQ7gEwAA

also

Unpublished = SECRET ;D

Basis for the adoption was the UNPUBLISHED Reich Defense Law of 4 September 1938.

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_He%25C3%259F&prev=/search%3Fq%3DStellvertreter%2Bhess%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3Dzec%26tbo%3Dd%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26channel%3Dnp&sa=X&ei=laKvUISUE46N0wWpsoHYBg&ved=0CDcQ7gEwAA

;)

Quoted from FordPerfect

Rudolf Walter Hess official title before he left Germany was deputy Fürher, other wise known as Stellvertreter des Führers.... the difficulty is with the Stellvertreter because we don't quite have a English language translation for the word and it does not fully equate to Deputy.

The German "BEOLINGUS - Your Online Dictionary" provided by T.U. Chemnitz, Deutschland, shows the following meanings for Stellvertreter:

representative; substitute; proxy; deputy; surrogate; Second in Command; avatar; proxy.

The 1993, Second edition of the Collins German/ English, English/ German Dictionary shows the following meanings for Stellvertreter:

(acting) representative; deputy.

Although I probably can't easily pinpoint the Jewish persecution exhibition I referred to a few posts back, today is November 29, the day in 1940 when the film The Eternal Jew was released.

The film Der ewige Jude opened on November 29th, 1940 throughout the German Reich. Each city where the film played had it's own posters. In the Altenkirchen district of Betzdorf, the film was described as a "documentary film about world Jewry". "It is unique because it is no fantasy, but undiluted reality."

The Nazi goal of Der ewige Jude is to be the first film to portray a fully exposed picture of world Jewry, and to be a "valuable tool in the struggle to break the power of the Jews over the Aryan race."

The consistent theme throughout the film of the Jew as parasite in an otherwise healthy host, is found throughout the film in several forms, each of them designed to reveal to Germans the "true" Jew underneath the veneer of European culture that concealed the Jewish parasite.

Jews are introduced as a foreign, swarthy, hook-nosed, untidily bearded, sullen presence that clogs the teeming streets of middle Europe. They haggle, squabble over food at the table, hoard with wealth, conceal it from tax collectors, and grow sleek and fat at the expense of good Germans. Their religion and culture are seen as cabalistic sources of secret powers.

In one famous scene, swarms of rats scurry through cellars and sewers, the shots are intercut with images of Jews emigrating from Palestine to to all corners of the world. The overlaid text conveyed the message:

"Where rats turn up, they spread diseases and carry extermination into the land. They are cunning, cowardly and cruel, they travel in large packs, exactly the way the Jews infect the races of the world."

The film had been preceded by two years worth of a Nazi anti-Semitic exhibition that toured the cities, and pre-dated the war by almost two years... more like three (taking its creation into 1936 at least) given the time it would have taken to organise it, create, and assemble the contents

The Eternal Jew exhibition first opened in the Library of the German Museum in Munich on November 8, 1937, and ended on January 31, 1938. Billed as a degenerate-art exhibition, it was the largest prewar anti-Semitic exhibit thus far produced by the Nazi's. The exhibit featured photographs pointing out the typically "Jewish" features of political figures, such as Leon Trotsky, and international film star Charlie Chaplin.

The displays emphasized supposed attempts by Jews to bolshevize Germany, It did this by revealing an 'eastern' Jew - wearing a kaftan, and holding gold coins in one hand and a whip in the other. Under his arm is a map of the world, with the imprint of the hammer and sickle. The exhibition attracted 412,300 visitors, over 5,000 per day.

The exhibition moved to Vienna for August 2 through October 23, 1938, and then to Berlin from November 12, 1938 through January 31, 1939. Police reports stated there was a direct correlation rise in anti-Semitic feelings, and in some cases violence against the Jewish community in each city the exhibition was held.

As I learned from the Kelvingrove exhibition, the Fascist Party of Germany, or the Nazis, were well advanced in their operation to eliminate 'The Dirty Jew' long before the war started.

Der ewige Jude "The Eternal Jew"

This item also includes the text of a pamphlet written by Joseph Goebbels, and distributed prior to the start of the film, outlining what the viewer is expected to see and think, even before seeing it.

It was a very clever ploy, preventing them forming their own opinion first, and I believe would have worked well in its day (when all media was controlled by the party, together with the other propaganda he was presenting to the German people.

Hess cannot be disassociated from the whole anti-Semitic scenario. Well, he was a rabid anti-Semite himself - and I'll verify that after I remember my studies of years ago.

Something else to remember: Hess was Hitler's secretary. Hess wrote down, and obviously agreed with, the rambling discourse that became Mein Kampf. I actually have a copy in the garage. History student you see!

Off tangent - German copyright is 94 years after the author's death. Does anyone get Adolf's royalties?

I'm not sure about that claim about German copyright.

Germany is part of the European Union and has abolished much of its copyright law, I think around 2007.

It has implemented the EU Copyright Directive 93/98/EEC. Parts of the Directive were based on German authors’ right law in the first place, e.g. the duration of copyright term: German authors’ right law had previously granted protection for 70 years after the death of the author, which was the longest term of all EU member states; before 1965 it was life plus 80 years.

Payments normally fall to the family via inheritance, unless any contract was in place to deal with them another way. In this case though, it looks as if the publisher has claimed the rights.

As has been noted elsewhere though, copyright of Mein Kampf appears to have been left with the publishers, and we have covered this matter as they are not allowing anyone to reprint or use excerpts commercially.

But this changed a few months ago - I forget the actual details now, and the post in here would have to be consulted for their plans.

I do recall there was a plan to print parts, together with translations, but not the whole book.

Hitler became a multi-millionaire from Mein Kampf, and bought his first customised Mercedes with the money - something he planned to do while still in prison.

Bavarian State Government are present owners ;)

Acording to Wiki ;)

I came across this recently , still undecided which version to purchase.

Republication in Germany after 2015

On February 3, 2010, the Institute of Contemporary History (IfZ) in Munich announced plans to republish an annotated version of the text, for educational purposes in schools and universities, in 2015, when the copyright currently held by the Bavarian state government expires (2016). This would then be the book's first publication in Germany since 1945. A group of German historians argued that a republication was necessary to get an authoritative annotated edition by the time the copyright runs out, which will open the way for neo-Nazi groups to publish their own versions. "Once Bavaria's copyright expires, there is the danger of charlatans and neo-Nazis appropriating this infamous book for themselves" Wolfgang Heubisch said. The Bavarian government opposed the plan, citing respect for victims of the Holocaust. The Bavarian Finance Ministry said that permits for reprints would not be issued, at home or abroad. This would also apply to a new annotated edition. The republished book might be banned as Nazi propaganda. Even after expiration of the copyright, the Bavarian government emphasised that "the dissemination of Nazi ideologies will remain prohibited in Germany and is punishable under the penal code".[31][32][33][34][35]

Apparently Hitler once stated that he would not have written or published Mein Kampf IF he had known that he would become chancellor.

A few British politicians of WW2 era. stated they never read Mein Kampf , I once asked my mother if she had read Mein Kampf , there was some mumbling about it being a load of mumbo jumbo , she had not purchased it and it was accepted there was a copy in every family and it did the rounds (private library ? ) , yes - she spoke just like a politician. She was quite educated , theatre sister , ran a tented hospital , rank of captain , mainly India & far east , landed on beaches at Normandy , France,Belgium & Germany. She then had some involvement with Lebensborn children , the diplomat that she was said something about late potty training and the master race ;)

1934 ,  Rudolf Hess must have known what Hitlers intentions were with "living space in the east" and how he intended to achieve it.  To be so close to Hitler then it can only be assumed Hess was in general agreement.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/hess1.htm

Hess was much more than a cheer leader - weeled out for May day rally propaganda..  .     After the flight a British officer commandant of a POW camp for German officer POW's , gave them the news.  Just prior he asked them all a question -  who would be the very last German leader , to take such actions without Fuhrer approvals , the replies were all of the opinion that Hess would never !

========

It is often said that by the time of the flight to Scotland , that hess had lost influence with Hitler.  However May 2, 1941: a speech by Hess at the Messerschmitt Works was a statement to all Germans , that Hess was very important and a real deputy to Hitler.  IMHO it was contrived by Hitler that he could not appear in person (original intention) as a boost to Hess just prior to the flight - the message was quite clear   ;)

You would think that "C" when he had the chance would have a peep into the Hess file ;) Hess was still alive (just) in 1985 when this book was first published. Oldfield was put out to grass in circumstances where he may have taken umbrage , such that he may have spilled some beans. In his murky world of espionage & deception , did Oldfield give a clue or two or leads into yet another conspiracy theory , or just have a bit of retirement mischief ;D

In fact he did not have much to say BUT he does have a good point about Hess having his own intelligence service (fat load of good it did him) , perhaps it was intended not to do Hess any good in what would be agreeable to his fuehrer. My take on this is that the service was the Jahnke Buro , run by Kurt Jahnke who led a very chequered career , executed by the Russians in 1950 , was Jahnke a German , Russian or British agent ?? Seems to me he was a free agent from WW1 to WW2 , along with a few others. After Hess , Jahnke seemed to work for Walter Schellenberg - who seemed to be nobodys fool ;)

More (just a little) , on the QUOTE New Theory by "C" ;)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1300&dat=19810316&id=dwARAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZZIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1926,98932

Quoted from Dugald

The German "BEOLINGUS - Your Online Dictionary" provided by T.U. Chemnitz, Deutschland, shows the following meanings for Stellvertreter:

representative; substitute; proxy; deputy; surrogate; Second in Command; avatar; proxy.

The 1993, Second edition of the Collins German/ English, English/ German Dictionary shows the following meanings for Stellvertreter:

(acting) representative; deputy.

==================

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19430922&id=t6kWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=BSMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4036,2689870

Official Government Statement / Official Account 2 years & 4 months after Hess's flight , as made available to the House of Commons by Foreign Secretary  Anthony Eden.  I suppose this very late account was to opinionate that Hess's reasoning had sfa value.  There was nothing forthcoming from the British Government in 1941 -  when Churchill was at his very weakest in Parliament.

Much of this has been laboured in books up to the present time , however there is one important detail that seems to have been overlooked :-

QUOTE.

He pictured his flight as intended to give Britain a chance to open conversations without loss of prestige.

---

Now then during WW2 there were many channels of communication between Britain and Germany  (concerning discusions about discusions for peace).  Until Hess was captured , well taken into custody for his own safety is probably the better version - it just never struck Hess that the King would not grant him safe passage back to Germany.  Was Hess such a fool -  even if his info from Househofer(s) and his intelligence service were well spiked   ;D  IMHO  I doubt if he could have been so naive.  It is well recorded that Hess came with a well prepared document ,  if it still exists - now who did The Duke of Hamilton have greater allegiance to   a)  The King    b)  Churchill  c)  The RAF  d)  The English / Scottish landed gentry  or  e)  one of the several security services  f)  Most senior military officer of Scotland.

It does seem that the Duke of Hamilton (or one of his brothers on the D of H behalf) met with Hess very soon after his landing,  Hess did not anticipate having to parachute , he did so to save his life. Important papers would be in a brief-case or other container.  It is generally accepted nore so than ever in recent years, that the "official" account of Hess's landing at Floors Farm is a cover up to the actual events.  The book  Double Standards - reveals much  ,  all that is needed is a new break , just a little disclosure of info. from best sources.  No wonder Hess's conversations with his family at Spandau were well guarded     ;)

Whatever ,  Hess knew that he was a very important big cog in Nazi Germany,  it does seem that Hess was prepared to accept risk of some loss of his own standing on the world stage and in Germany (on their population as a whole).  Hess was prepared to accept egg on face for a settlement to prevent war on two fronts.
Hess's logic seemed to be based on the fact that in his opinion , his flight to Scotland was intended to safe face for Britain.

Of course the question is IF  Hitler had won over on Stalin , would he have stood by his treaty or started Operation Sea Lion Mk.2

Of that we can trust in the works of Churchill and eminent historians   :-/

Of no consequence in any case ,  even allowing for lend/lease equipment to Russia , Hitler had not done his research on Russia well if at all   ;D

In the last few months , I have been reading up on other leads on the Hess flight ,  1.  The Occult / the Esoteric , this is serious stuff and no doubt about it - Hess was into it all,  this is taking time , more expensive books and some rare   ;)     2.  Early books on the Hess flight , in particular those originating in U.S.A. as they were better informed in 1941/42 than resident in the U.K.    3.   Spymasters , who may have heard something or read something and then acted without discretion.
------
You may recall  (look-back) 30/11/2012 when I mentioned the book by Richard Deacon  " C "      A Biography of Sir Maurice Oldfield , Head of MI6

I was disappointed with the obove book,  although the point about Hess's own "Secret Service" was interesting with a slant , although I had previously read about this private intelligence service.

Students of the subject of the Hess Flight may be interested in the following book , that in fact spends almost half a page (p184) on this very subject of the interview by Richard Deacon with Oldfield.   However John H. Waller specifically states   ,   Oldfield probably had in mind a German named Franz Pfeffer von Solomon as Hess's Intelligence man.

Now then  John H. Waller may just be the man to differentiate valid info. from supposition.  Waller wrote a very good book , devoted chapter 18 titled  The Hess Mission,  the book is well worth buying and now very cheap for a excellent book.  It may be dated  1986  BUT there is IMHO little of new history about the Hess flight revealed since.  There is also the mention of the much / all important German prestige  (bottom of p181).

There is no doubt at all in my mind that  John H. Waller has the best perspective , had the best grip on the subject @ 1986 to give the definative overview on the part of the story he covers.  The first few pages of chapter 18 has stupid errors such as Hess being taken into custody in the village of Turnhouse etc. but ignore that , it is to be expected of a American  ;D

Chapter8 - can be read HERE  :-

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QPGC7PCwgRgC&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=The+Unseen+War+in+Europe:+Espionage+and+Conspiracy+in+the+Second+World+War+++hess&source=bl&ots=15Bu3U2Uoa&sig=yY4GIxk1uztve_jpjKh7Ap1ozYU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0bTMUK6EK-PH0QXG-oCAAQ&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=The%20Unseen%20War%20in%20Europe%3A%20Espionage%20and%20Conspiracy%20in%20the%20Second%20World%20War%20%20%20hess&f=false

The SOURCE Notes are good :-

Waller ends Chapter 18 with the sentence :-

Barbarossa was Hitler's greatest mistake.

--

He should have added the words , Hess knew where Hitler would make his greatest mistake , as he typed up the warning in Mein Kampf , a war on two fronts ;D

;)

First  VISUAL  sighting of Hess's  BF110 on arrival at Scottish West Coast  ;)   apparently    :-/

Micro-history

A Royal Observer Corps watchtower was based here during WW2 as the building gave a wide panoramic view of the Firth of Clyde. It is credited with the first visual sighting of Rudolf Hess's Messerschmitt 110 in 1941.[8][9]
References

Notes

    ^ British Listed Buildings Retrieved : 2011-03-13
    ^ McEwan, Mae (1985). The Harbour- Fullarton folk reminisce. Pub. Fullarton Historical Society. Inside front cover.
    ^ Strawhorn, Page 171.
    ^ McEwan, Page 5.
    ^ a b c Alastair Weir
    ^ Strawhorn, Page 174.
    ^ McEwan, Page 10.
    ^ Irvine Harbour. Accessed:2010-01-26
    ^ History of the Harbour and Town Retrieved : 2011-03-13

Sources

    McEwan, Mae (1985). The Harbour- Fullarton folk reminisce. Pub. Fullarton Historical Society.
    Strawhorn, John (1985). The History of Irvine. Edinburgh : John Donlad. ISBN 0-85976-140-1.
==========

Source  HERE  :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyd%27s_Automatic_tide_signalling_apparatus

Or of course you can consult the page on our own humble Wiki at:-

http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/BoydsAutomaticTideSignallingApparatus#Observer_post

Foxy , as you are aware , I purchased the book "Attack Warning Red" , so far - I have only had time for a quick flick through the book. It does make sense that there would be a ROC early sighting from a look-out at this Irvine harbour tower. Strange that I have never read this as fact in any book I have ever read about the Hess flight (probably most if not all). I am aware that there are statements in some books that there was "political meddling" with ROC records regarding the Hess flight (Scotland , but not England) - so I just wonder if ,, ;)

amd. Just had a look at the SecSc Wiki on the tower , I note that the ROC was in fact a brick block at the base next to the tower ;)

If you Gooooogle on the words Rudolf Hess + Netley , then you will come across claims the Rudold Hess was treated at the RVI , Netley near Southampton.

As a typical example :-

The hospital was once more mobilised for service when World War Two commenced in 1939, dealing with the more severe cases that could not be treated by the increasingly specialised facilities on the war front. Netley became ever more involved in psychiatric care and the asylum building, erected in 1870, treated numerous patients including Hitler’s deputy Rudolph Hess. The site was handed to the US Forces in 1944, both their Army and Navy doctors moving into the main building and hutted hospital in the grounds. An estimated 68,000 casualties were treated before the Americans returned the hospital to the British Army in July 1945, including some 10,000 Germans who would later become prisoners of war.

SOURCE.

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/hampshire-countryside/rvcp/history-rvcp.htm
=============

Now , I don't know if this is aspirations towards some claim to fame for the Netley site (and then other websites repeating a total untrouth) - or if the real claim is / should be that Staff Doctors / medical staff based at Ripley RVI in fact travelled to treat Hess elsewhere , for example the fractured leg from his suicide attempted by leaping over a stairwell. I have always read that X-ray equipment was in fact taken to his lodgings at Aldershot :-/

Strange ,  it seems there are two claims of ROC post locations at Irvine having first sighted Hess.

A "Bing Heap" of industrial waste (apparently now much reduced in size)  known locally as Blue Billy  /  Blue Billy Bing  - if you Goooogle further.  Obviously a elevated position would be a better ROC post than ground level against the harbour tower.

Also HERE  :-

http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/forum/m-1236719052/

;)

Trawling back (5 years) on this SecSco Rudolf Hess Flight thread , as mentioned by JadeFalcon ;)

July 15, 2007, 6:17pm

Enigma
Posts: 733

A question about the Hess flight. I've got somewhat of an interest in Local History, and one of the books on Irvine mentions that there was a Royal Observer Corps Observation post on top of the old Blue Billy Bing in what is now the Irvine Beach Park, and that they were credited with the first definite visual confirmed sighting of Hess's plane. I've never heard this mentioned elsewhere.

It's the Old Irvine book by Neil Stirrat that mentions this.

An old photograph of "Old Billy Bing"

From HERE (scroll down) :-

http://spmount.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/conflict-and-resolution-in-life-and-in.html

Yes, does make more sence , ROC would be at a elevated position and local historians living through WW2 would not forget such detail ;)

Strange , can't be copyrite   :-/

The  spmount.blogspot - does state , that the photograph of  "Old Billy Bing" was obtained from a ,,    :-

capture a screenshot from a YouTube video presentation of old Irvine

So - will try Photobucket again   :o

;)

I think the esoteric/occult angle is the best explanation. Couple of reasons why.

Hess was certainly mentally disturbed - therefore his "rational" acts may well be interesting.

He was in complete thrall to Hitler - certainly worship of a religious fervour.

But he was now losing his place in Hitler's court.

So could it be mooted that Hess attempted the flight to ward off the war on two fronts, cf Mein Kampf, but also as some sort of, IDK, mystic celebration?

The Nazis were nuts for that sort of thing... as opposed to just nuts of course ;D

Is there some esoteric date attached either to the fateful day in May or some big festival type deal not long after?

Could this be what spurred Hess on?

Hess may have had his own personal astrologist  ,  he was always interested in the heavens , one of the common photographs of him is laid on his bed with a map of the heavens on the wall behind him.  IIRC in the book by Bird - he confirms that Hess received correspondence updates from NASA employees (probably the de-nazified rocketry specialists).  It was certainly the fashion during the years the Nazis lived that astrology , uranography + astronomy were all linked as a same subject / belief.

The book by John H. Waller that I have recently been reading  "The Unseen War in Europe"  , Waller would know and he does confirm the Hitler worked in consideration of his horoscopes (as did Goering).

Waller in his book , from the de-brief of General Walther Schellenberg , mentions of his talk with Himmler after the death of Heydrich 4-6-1942 , that he rambled on about (and this after he confirmed his belief in private to Schellenberg that the war was lost to Germany)  :-
1.  Pending Operations in Tibet
2.  Indian Philosopy
3.  History of German Witchcraft
4.  Magical powers of Kersten Felix , his personal physician who dabbled in the occult
5.  Gathering of 10 SS Officers seated in a circle meditating , the powers of telepathy to affect the interogation of a person in the adjoining room

====

There would be some esoteric date or similar  "signs" that had to be correct before Hess would have made his flight ,  ISTR I have in early reading noticed this but at the time considered it circumspect.

The problem with the esoteric aspects of Rudolf Hess ,  THULE is the start and then that leads on to such as  Sebottendorf  etc.  etc. etc.  - this then becomes a  total  "Pandora's box" in comparison to all the "normal" reading that you have done so far.  Then you start reading about the Nordic Runes and there is no end to it all.

It could in fact be the REAL TRUTH , that Churchill , Security Services Et al - were in fact totally puzzled by the flight of Rudolf Hess,  that being the case then the answer can only come from the occult /  esoteric .  There would be "certain types of people" , that Hess would certainly take notice of without adequate security check, there are the odd types - to be honest I don't feel like reading up further that involves these types, but I may end up doing so   ;)

An old movie called Yellow Canary is on at the moment. It not only features Anna Neagle and Richard Greene, but it has a curious gag about "why Hitler and Hess fell out..."

We never find out why as this bit features onboard a ship and foghorns and other sounds drown out the reason "why Hitler and Hess fell out..."

Now this was filmed in 1944. Which makes one wonder if there was some rumour in currency at the time.

Happy New Year.

I would say there was plenty of rumour in currency at the time  (the time being May 1941)

---

10 May 1941 - RAFP at RAF Turnhouse guard Rudolf Hess for the night following his unexpected arrival by parachute into
Scotland.

QUOTED from here :-

http://www.rafpa.com/history.htm

-------

Yes,  I take it that the RAFP guarded Rudolf Hess at Turnhouse , not that the RAFP based at Turnhouse guarded Rudolf Hess elsewhere    ;D

I am almost certain that this is true FACT  ,  now this does not hold good with the accepted account in all the books , newspapers etc.    ;)  There were events that happened at Eaglesham that night that have been witheld.   I am mulling over a few things and will explain better soon   :)

I think I now have a long required break, I may be perusing new  (of late) evdence    :)

You will recall that on 20th November 2012 ,  I mentioned reading a book called  Crime Through Time (about a Crime Museum in the West Country).

Read the contents & letter on Page  232   ;)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KKEYVtatY4IC&pg=PA232&lpg=PA232&dq=raf++dapm&source=bl&ots=vKyoyuZMW6&sig=CGdkoTMDpllSCaacPLeiXda4tro&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8_TpULqwEpO10QX75YDIAw&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=raf%20%20dapm&f=false

====

You will need to be quite well read on the Hess subject to understand all the implications - but here goes , have a good look at this  :-

Have a good look at all photographs shown on "original listing"  :-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WWII-Letter-Edinburgh-12-May-1941-Rudolf-Hess-Lands-in-Scotland-/330851433632?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&nma=true&si=1gVjkgxz%2FIYLWJ3LL6Pt89wOo20%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

This looks quite genuine   ;)

Hey Fordy,

A couple of things.

The e-bay letter starts with COPY and ends with Original in PF 54592 HAUSHOFER 58x etc etc.

From the National Archive: Dr Albrecht HAUSHOFER: German. A senior and well connected Nazi academic with pre-war British links. With the agreement of Rudolph Hess, HAUSHOFER tried unsuccessfully to make contact with the Duke of Hamilton by letter in 1940

Here's a link: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?Uri=C11212614

As to the book Crime Through Time - any more details?

I ask merely because the following chapter is titled

Hess - Peace emissary, or was he sh*t on by the British?

Doesn't seem very, er, academic to me! ;)

Regards

Take a look at the crayon marking at top RH of letter.  (1Y)    I suspect that this is the self-and same letter (all but being a a very probable "official"  COPY of the original - that may have been filched) ,  then photocopy in recent years displayed at  The Crime through Time  "Museum" located at Nicholson House , NEWENT, Gloucestershire.

The references to what seems to be  Scottish Office (the Scottish Home Office - created 1939).

Note - the address -    Box 5, EDINBURGH   ,  Hhmm  -   I am thinking more  MI5 than Special Branch

also  Box No. 500 , OXFORD  -  probably likewise.

Although the Duke of Hamilton was running the RAF show in Scotland. It is clear he was under observations by the RAF DAPM  (Provost Marshalls) , seems the RAF equiv. of Army Military Police - at long arms length out of his area (I take it) nominally under  RAF 18 Group.

In the odd book - you will find that the Dowager Lady Hamilton stated her opinion that the D of H had in fact interviewed  Hess very soon after he contacted Scottish soil.  There is also testimony by a Ex-RAF officer that when he was a rookey stationed at Turnhouse - he had to turn out with 2 or 3 other officers (at short notice)  taken to a mansion (near Turnhouse) to form some sort of a "Guard of Honour" for a strange visitor   ;D

------------------------------
Ref.  eBay listing  (description - part of) :-

Came with a group of other unrelated vintage and antique paper documents, most of which originated from the Daventry area. Provenance unknown.

------------------------------

The book  "Crime through Time"   by Stephen Richards , it is a very weighty tome , over 525 pages on oiled paper.  The Author  Stephen Richards was a crime Press reporter for many years.  The book can be obtained cheap , I would suggest you get a copy and get a grip of the reporters writing style.

--

Yes, just 1 Chapter is related to Hess.

Chapter is titled

Hess - Peace emissary, or was he sh*t on by the British?

It is hardly academic  ,  however I don't think Stephen Richards understood all the implications of the letter , if he did then he did not spell it all out , he writes more for front page "impact" - that is his style.  It is a book about a strange Crime Museum by a author who is more than a little strange .  Do not let this detract from the fact that the letter has been displayed at the museum and that it seems to me the original (copy) has now surfaced  -  there are many connotations regarding this letter within the book  - however I don't think this letter is some very clever hoax..

If not a hoax ,  then just the mention of the words relating to Hess the "prisoner" or at that stage a drop in guest ?   -  "Taken in Charge by RAF Intelligence"  ,  then this alone would need books on the subject to be amended somewhat   ;)

With reference to the  eBay letter,  I may add that is now in my  "safe custody"   ;)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WWII-Letter-Edinburgh-12-May-1941-Rudolf-Hess-Lands-in-Scotland-/330851433632?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&nma=true&si=1gVjkgxz%2FIYLWJ3LL6Pt89wOo20%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

I am quite happy that this will stand up to any tests as to sound provenance   :)

-----

It does seem that  Box 500 Oxford ,during WW2 was in fact  MI5  ,  also Box 5 Edinburgh ,during WW2 was their main Scottish Out-station.  I presume that MI5 had all the 5 & 0   PO Box numbers ?

Within the civil service community the service is colloquially known as Box 500 (after its official wartime address of PO Box 500; its current address is PO Box 3255, London SW1P 1AE).[3]

SOURCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MI5

:)

Interesting stuff, Ford. This quest has certainly kept you busy for hours and hours.

I wonder what the role of Maryhill Barracks was at that time? I would have expected it to be Army based and was surprised to see that the DOH was there. Generally the services were not known for close cooperation at that time. As I recall the RN Security HQ was in either the Central Station Hotel or the St. Enochs Hotel, Glasgow and I would have expected the RAF to have their own HQ somewhere around the city.

Yes,  I don't quite know the reason why , when a little sound fact or two is turned out - there are even more questions than answers.  The story gets even more complex - is this further sign of a official cover up slowly disintegrating   :-/

=========

You don't often get names and photographs of those claiming to be a minor role on the night of 10thMay 1941 @ Eaglesham.

Interesting photographs , also note the comment  :-

A small Home Guard group set out for the farmhouse, comprising an officer, William Ferguson and one or two other men. On their arrival William's officer who was a German speaker (and who almost certainly appears in several images on this page) questioned the prisoner for some time.

SOURCE.

http://www.staffshomeguard.co.uk/DotherReminiscences64Renfrewshire.htm

-----

Accounts state that shortly after the flight came to a end at Eaglesham , Hess was spoken to in German only by Major Donald (of the ROC) and that Roman Battaglia  (described sometimes as a clerk or even a diplomat - from the Polish Consulate in Glasgow).  It is still unclear if Battaglia was requested in a convoluted way by the Renfrew Police , or if he found his own way there.  ( MI5 were unable to determine this from their questioning of him).

It would be interesting to know the identity of this German speaking Home Guard Officer ,  could he realy speak German , or is this yet just another distraction.

:)

;)

Interesting article under the link.

The pic of the car at the road junction looks like the track from the start of the Cut above Greenock to Loch Thom, one of the group pics may be beside one of the dams in the same area. I don't think the pic with the cliff as background is near to Greenock.

I wonder where their HQ was in Greenock?

If the HG detachment had to travel from Greenock to Eaglesham it must have taken them at least a couple of hours, probably longer, given the roads and the average speed of a small car at that time.
Unless more then one car was involved it must have been a small detachment.

It does seem odd that a detachment from Greenock should be first on the scene - if the officer did converse with Hess the Greenocks must have been close.

This may well be answered as one picture in the link, from May 3rd, mentions a tour of Scotland.

Yet this is still difficult to reconcile. Given that RH was taken to Busby Home Guard...???? Where were they?

Is there any record of what units attended Floors Farm?

It would seem that if their was a Home Guard race to the Bf110 crash site at Eaglesham , then the 3rd Bn. from Newton Mearns would be streets ahead ;D

http://www.home-guard.org.uk/hg/cty-renfrewshire-buteshire.html

The 1st Bn. could just happened to have been in the Eaglesham area on a excercise ;)

http://ssa.nls.uk/film.cfm?fid=3349&search_term=col&search_join_type=AND&search_fuzzy=yes

At the risk of flogging a certain animal in a certain state of health...

Even if the 1st Btn were in the area, Newton Mearns alone had three Home Guard units.

From here:http://www.mearnshistory.org.uk/page82.html

The Headquarters of the Home Guard was the Fairweather Hall, where an armed sentry was posted. There were also outposts at Driffenbeg Farm and Bannerbank Farm in the south of Mearns Parish and one man clearly remembers being posted there. He was one of the youngest recruits and was given the furthest out duty!

And there's more

The Home Guard had three platoons under the leadership of Major Barrie. The men met at the Fairweather Hall where they were given their duties. Sometimes this involved being on call at the Fairweather Hall, but some men were out on patrol all night and the youngest and fittest were assigned to the mobile battle patrol.

Mobile battle patrol? Yet the 1st beat them to the crash site!

Given that it now seems that anyone in uniform, in a 100 mile radius, was in attendance, surely it is time to ascertain just exactly who was there officially, not memoirs.

Wheat and chaff springs to mind! ;D

For instance, Fairweather Hall Home Guard HQ,

I've no idea where Bannerbank Farm was, but I seem to think there may be a school there now.

As to Driffenbeg Farm:
William Cochran was born at Driffenbeg, a moorland sheep farm, on 30 July 1922...

http://rsbm.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/51/67.abstract

Driffenbeg and Bannerbank Farms. Miles away to tell the truth!

Half of this letter looks familiar!!

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hessrep.html

Yes, it does.  However it is not half of a correspondence , (they are two individual transmittals).  Of the same time period , you will note one dated 12th May 1941 and the other the 13th May 1941.    The letter signed by T.A. Robertson (TAR)  ran  MI5  SO1 Dept that ran the  XX Committee - so who knows  ;)

You will also note the crayon type mark  1X and the other 1Y at the top RH corners   ;)

The letter dated 12th May 1941  (that I now have the copy of)  , fortunately - I have been able to establish that it surfaced as part of a job lot of misc. WW2 type & other papers , I have a note of the Auctioneers & address - so it may be worth a enquiry to see if they are able to disclose who placed them for auction .  Obviously they will be subject to confidentiality with their client but in the  "Interests of Historical Research" they may give a few clues.  Likewise - if the Museum of Crime is still going (I need to check) they may be prepared to give some clue as to where they obtained their copy.  Likewise - The Jewishvirtuallibrary   ;)

-------

IMHO  - there is the problem if you were to interview the last known survivors (if there are in fact any alive)  ,  memory failure and also "The Last Piper Standing" is in a position to write history according to a person who was actually there with no recriminations or anybody to correct a clouded memory.

I don't know about members of the Eaglesham area Home Guard  , it does seem that Robert Anderson was probably the last member of the Royal Signals who were based at Eaglesham House that night Hess dropped in :-

http://remember.snp.org/tributes/view/robert_anderson/

;)

PS.  The T.A. Robertson letter is often seen in books about the Hess Flight , the other one - not that I know of  (other than The Crime Museum book)   ;)

Quoted from jimbo

Driffenbeg and Bannerbank Farms. Miles away to tell the truth!

=============

Just had a look on Google mapping , I don't know the area.  However - in the grand scheme of things they must have heard the Bf110 and probably seen it go down.  I understand there was a small scale fire - so during the black-out it would stand out well.

Under the circumstances , it would take a strong willed young lad to "stay at his post" and miss all the fun , if they had been instructed to  ??  -  ,  probably their section leader was a neighbour or uncle in any case , did they stay put or did they go  ???

Their location - probably covered a blind rural spot not seen from townships , probably they had a loose re-mit.

In the grand scheme of things they were quite close , 3 to 4 miles away , even with no motor transport or bicycles they had good incentive to leg it there to "investigate further" and have first bag of any collectables & loot going .  In any case they were going to be amongst the late-comers   ;D

Quite a hilly area, this. Here's a piccy, facing the wrong way unfortunately, for illustration, taken up the road somewhere about Neilston -

http://www.drookitagain.co.uk/coppermine/displayimage.php?pid=3648

Also, from previous link:

Others who were not called up served as Air Raid Protection Officers (ARPs) or Fire Watchers. One of the first signs of war in Mearns was the building of the ARP Shelter in Langrigg Road. The air raid siren was on the roof of the building which later became the British Legion building. One of the ARP’s duties was to patrol at night to ensure that no lights were showing from houses. A house holder would be alerted if there was even a chink of light peeping out from a window blind.

I suppose it must point to a swathe of army peeps ahoy as there are spotters and the like in EK, Cathkin etc.

Possibly - you have already read the standard "story" in the book  Great Glasgow Characters by John Burrowes.

As HERE  ;)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OvHNnH68MIoC&pg=PT11&lpg=PT11&dq=rudolf+hess+great+glasgow+characters&source=bl&ots=aJxm6bIk8g&sig=KTi75NH3PMZ3l2P3RVFpUAIHvDI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Su7uUNSuM5Sq0AWh4oH4Ag&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA

It seems to be a compilation from the normal sources that have become legend, however - in parts there is greater detail that probably came from interview with such as Robert Anderson eg   a local "Girls Institute Hall"  @ Busby   ;)

Despite the claims of Major Donald ,  the Home Guard it seems did have the intelligence to have worked it out (by midnight) for themselves that Hess was  "an officer of some importance"  IMHO  if their prisonor was in fact Rudolf Hess then they would easliy identify hih from newspaper photographs & newsreels that they had seen.  If they were uncertain - then was it Alfred Horn   ;D

Quoted from jimbo

Half of this letter looks familiar!!

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hessrep.html

====================

Looking at the bottom of the page of that web-site is the following , (that credits the SOURCE MATERIAL)  :-

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: Rudolf Walter Richard Hess and Bard, Mitchell G. The Complete Idiot's Guide to World War II. NY: MacMillan, 1998.

So  , if I read this correctly - the book  "The Complete Idiot's Guide to World War II"  must have a Chapter dedicated to Rudolf Walter Richard Hess , the authors being Bard, Mitchell G.  or is that just  Mitchell G. -  who must have obtained a copy of the 12/5/1941 letter   :-/

Looks like yet another book to obtain for perusal   ;D

Quoted from jimbo

Quite a hilly area, this. Here's a piccy, facing the wrong way unfortunately, for illustration, taken up the road somewhere about Neilston -

http://www.drookitagain.co.uk/coppermine/displayimage.php?pid=3648

Also, from previous link:

Others who were not called up served as Air Raid Protection Officers (ARPs) or Fire Watchers. One of the first signs of war in Mearns was the building of the ARP Shelter in Langrigg Road. The air raid siren was on the roof of the building which later became the British Legion building. One of the ARP’s duties was to patrol at night to ensure that no lights were showing from houses. A house holder would be alerted if there was even a chink of light peeping out from a window blind.

I suppose it must point to a swathe of army peeps ahoy as there are spotters and the like in EK, Cathkin etc.

===============

I have used Google maps & "Pegman" positioned at several points to get the lie of the land ;)

Looks like when/if the sun comes out - then it will be a day or two car trip into the area , in any case I have one or two other Hess Flight lines of inquiry to check out by self . Actually - I have all / most of the OS maps - in preparation :)

Just going through todays e'mail inbox.

----

Regarding the letter "original" copy (MI5) that I obtained off eBay.

Reliably informed :-

Box 500, Oxford was Blenheim Palace - MI5 HQ in 'the Country' from around 1941

----

So - seems top level wartime correspondence :)

It is beginning to feel to me that Hess was expected by the authorities.

The Greenock HG turning up first seems implausible unless they just happened to be passing on an exercise and saw the plane, identified it as German and jumped into the situation.   In which case I would have expected the local HG to arrive and take over.

As HG the Greenock team would be unlikely to have access to radio communications and the opportunities to phone home as it were would be few and far between on a long moorland trek.    I doubt if they could have telephoned Greenock without going through an operator and giving their position away.

There is a strong thread of coincidence and implausibility running through the whole Hess affair,  unless of course someone was working the strings.

Remember, if you are visiting the crash site, DO NOT FALL OVER THE STONE.

For a while - I have had a feeling that Hess was expected by the legal authorities and also the higher authorities (Peace Party as they are described)  ;)

It seems (from the MI5 letter obtained off eBay) that Hess was  "taken in charge by RAF Intelligence" , in the very early stage at Busby , therefore Roman Battaglia could have been working for RAF Intelligence (or Polish Intelligence, or Russian Intelligence or American Intelligence   ;D  ).

RB's interrogation of Hess could have lasted as long as 2 hours !

MI5 Interrogated RB well but obtained absolutely nothing (apparently RB had been trained in interrogation techniques).

It could well be that MI5 and RAF Intelligence were not talking to each other in any case.

The security services have apparently opened up to the public with their own website etc.  possibly I should send them a copy of the letter and ask for their comments on the contents  "To further the interests of historic research"   :)

   ;D

Worth a try I would have thought.

Might be better getting a read at the complete Haushofer archive held. I know some was off limits until 2004, an odd number of 63 years if my fingers and toes can be trusted ;D.

One wonders if some correspondence is to be hidden until 2041. Not too far off really!

I still have my doubts about a conspiracy though. I'm a firm believer in the power of c*ck-ups and coincidence.

Away to find an example why. ;)

This reads better in the book, but:

a man decides he must speak to the richest, most famous, most protected woman in the world. He scales the castle walls that surround her, and although he's spotted by a guard, he blithely proceeds to ignore screaming security alarms, shimmy up a drainpipe, find an open window, and, by pure chance, enter the bedroom of the fabulous female (her personal sentry is walking the dogs). She awakes to confront the intruder and hastily buzzes for assistance. No answer. So . . .

Michael Fagan and Queen Elizabeth II have a chat about life and unemployment.

If something had happened to HRH that night... imagine the books that would still be getting written about what was essentially a catalogue of mishap, c*ck-ups, and ineptitude.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/too-good-to-look-true-dramadocumentary-is-often-accused-of-adjusting-real-life-for-movie-thrills-the-opposite-is-often-the-case-as-john-lyttle-discovered-1550900.html

True  ,  Fact is often stranger than fiction.

However in the case of Fagan ,  it was all well reported at the time :-

From WIKI  :-

Arrest

Since it was then a civil wrong rather than a criminal offence, Michael Fagan was not charged for trespassing in the Queen's bedroom (Dennis J, Baker, Glanville Williams: Textbook of Criminal Law, London, 2012, Sweet & Maxwell at p. 1256). He was charged with theft (of the half bottle of wine), but the charges were dropped when he was committed for psychiatric evaluation. He spent the next six months in a mental hospital before being released on 21 January 1983. It was not until 2007, when Buckingham Palace became a "designated site" for the purposes of section 128 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, that what he did became criminal.[6] Fagan's mother later said, "He thinks so much of the Queen. I can imagine him just wanting to simply talk and say hello and discuss his problems."[1]

--------

During WW2 , the earliest local press reports from Glasgow  (a apparent SCOOP)  was then wired around the world.  This was probably well disseminated British wartime propaganda.

---

The Duke of Hamilton apparently would have liked his day in court (calling Hess as a witness)

Source  WIKI ,  :-

Motives for trip

Records released by the UK's National Archives confirm that Hess was on a peace mission. In early 1941 Germany tried to negotiate peace with Britain through diplomatic communications via Sweden.[35] The Duke of Hamilton commenced libel action in 1941/42 and wanted Hess in court as a witness.[36] However, some writers have speculated that the Duke of Hamilton might in fact have been implicated.[37] Some National Archives files relating to Hess and concerning the nature and range of German peace feelers in early 1941 (C1687G, C1954, C2785G) were formerly closed until 2017, but were released in 2007,[38] although these contain information largely in the public domain. Some files are still to be released, both from the arrest of Hess in 1941 and his death in Spandau.

Apparently the D of H was  "dissuaded by the authorities"  , from continuing on this line of action.

-----

IMHO  ,  when making historical comparisons - it needs to be like for like    ,    after 70 years there is no possibility of any official "Court of Enquiry"  ,  hence the conspiracy theorists  (and I may be included - possibly) can have a field day.

Possibly all the Renfrewshire + others in the North Ayreshire , Glasgow area Home Guard were out looking towards the sky on the night Hess left his Bf110 , likewise the black-spots in southern Scotland not covered by the R.O.C.

Probably the best read for the night is the book Double Standards,  there is the very important question to be answered about the Hess loss of his Iron Cross -  this is no conspiracy theory  ,   he would be incorrectly dressed for the events without it    ;)

Hey Fordy,

Rather than comparing like for like historic events, I was merely reflecting on the power of coincidence over conspiracy. ;)

That was interesting about the Duke of Hamilton's libel victory. A new one on me. V successful for his Grace though, two £25,000 suits settled. That's 1943 money though. Nearly 2 million in today's notes!

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19430320&id=xDRAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TVkMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2605,4205320

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=19420218&id=ifkuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=u9sFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2494,2982815

jimbo  ,  you will recall that back in July 2012 , I described best to obtain the book  "That Day Alone" by  Pierre Van Paassen by way of the Dial Publishing.  1941 (first printing).  I found (after buying two of the later editions) - that the first printing was needed to read the full text that desctibed The Duke of Hamilton as a British Fascist.  The Court case judgement in favour of The D of H required that future Editions be revised , however all the books sold did not have to be called back in for destruction.  It did not seem to affect sales of the book - quite the opposite , I suppose people knew the pages to pencil in the missing words.  P Van P  hardly paid a single $ of the D of H's extensive litigation costs.

Interesting too that Churchill prevented a planned trip by The D of H to the U.S.A. where he may have been interrogated by the press.  He left Brendan Bracken to mouth what was required.

----

Any new evidence immediately following the Hess parachute , and I am convinced the letter recently obtained is genuine sound new evidence to hand, mentioned only in two books with a poor copy - hardly considered reliable, this letter can now be reviewed in a new light.

The fact is that -  on the night in question ,RAF Intelligence in that area was under the control of a brother of the Duke of Hamilton  and his intelligence officer – Benson  (I doubt if the two brothers were in any disagreement over the politics of the time)  ,  it does seem (from all the Hess flight books) that the established Luftwaffe prisoner interogation procedures were not followed by the RAF.  And yet this letter does state that Hess was "taken in charge by RAF Security"  - well you can make what you wish of that.

Was Roman Battaglia part of the RAF Interoggation procedures   :-/

This Roman Battaglia is a subject on his own.  I always take note when I read his name.

If you have not already read the book , then I suggest you obtain :-

Rudolf Hess :  The British Illusion of Peace.  by John Harris .   JEMA Publications  (2010 first published)

Here - you will find more to read about Roman Battaglia than any other book I know of.  eg    Appendix 1  "Some friends of Carl Burckhardt"  pages  249 to 260 .  Includes photographs of Battaglia and his wife.  Page  254  QUOTE -  The two later letters were actually part of a dialogue from Mrs Battaglia to Burckhardt which were essentially letters requesting money  !
        Strange when you consider that Swiss neutral Carl Burckhardt during WW2  visited Rudolf Hess whilst he was in wartime captivety.  Plus the known Albrecht Hausehofer meetings / correspondence with Burckhardt (at the behest of Hess) -  things start to get very complex to get your head around   ;D

Well folks ,  I have just spoken to the wife of the owner of the private museum where the MI5 (that I believe to be a first generation copy of what I am convinced to be the / a official MI5 copy that I obtained off eBay) .  Sent a e'mail with link to the eBay listing so her husband can have a perusal , I understand they will have confidentiality with the person who deposited the museum exhibit.  IMHO - this will be the same person who had retained the copy before it was sold as part of a auction lot (seemingly not identified by seller or auctioneers).  I am suspecting part of a house clearing - possibly following a death.

The Crime through Time Museum , now has moved to new premises with a real prison   ;D

http://www.crimethroughtime.com/

A little spamming for them   :B   ,  must go out of my way to the area for a visit   :)

-----

Probing from the other end ,  I intend getting a e'mail off to the auction house who sold the lot just before X'mas 2012.  Confidentiality being a recent auction - this could be difficult.  IMHO  -  if I can get directions from both , then I will find it is the same person.  If that person is deceased - then I will get a letter off to MI5  -  asking for their considerations   ;D

The MI5 / Hess letter I obtained off eBay - it originated here   ;)

http://www.bamfords-auctions.co.uk/BidCat/detail.asp?SaleRef=05DEC12&LotRef=5633

Typical deceased estate clear out   :-/

--------
addl.

The lots alongside  5633 may be from same seller , medals etc.    ;)

http://www.bamfords-auctions.co.uk/BidCat/SearchResults.asp?category=GEN&status=A&offset=720

Quoted from jimbo

Half of this letter looks familiar!!

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hessrep.html

===============

OK - so I purchased the book  -  "The Complete Idiots Guide to World War 2"  by   Mitchell G. Bard,  Ph.D    (Alpha Books)

No sign of the MI5 letter in the book , the reason for the credit is revealed inside the back cover  "About the Author"

QUOTE.    Mitchel Bard is the executive director of the nonprofit American Israeli Cooperative Enterprise  (AICE) .  Now then AICE is in fact  http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org   -  SO JUST GIVING A PLUG FOR HIS OWN ORGANISATION   ;)
-------------------
That leaves just the credit for Wolf Rudiger Hess - who it seems is author of  3  qty. books ,  as far as I can determine / establish to date  - the MI5 copy letter was not included in any of his books.

1.  My Father Rudolf Hess  (1986)

I have the Hardback (reprinted March 1986) version ,  there seems no copy of the letter in this book , also I understand the softback edition is exactly the same.

2.   Who Murdered my Father, Rudolf Hess   (1989)

This book is described as a "EDITORIAL REVISION" - I assume the same book as at 1. above BUT has a appendix covering the death of Rudolf Hess ?     Book seems not so common and sells for abt.  £40

3.   Rudolf Hess  :   I do not repent anything.  (1994/1998)

This seems to be the book  -   that I understand only published in German (that I can't read)   ICH BEREUE NICHTS  (i REGRET NOTHING).

-----------------------------------

So , in fact the only book that I know of where this copy letter is included is in fact  :-

"Crime through Time"  by Stephen Roberts  (2003,  Mirage Publishing)   ISBN  1 902578 17 1

===============================

I have had no reply at all from by requests to the "Crime Museum" or the Auctioneers who sold the letter (part of a Lot) to the person who placed the letter copy on eBay   ;D   So , we are up a siding there.

Now ,  I know I have seen the copy letter prior to purchasing same , other than in the "Crime through Time" book.   Searched my own Rudolf Hess Library   :)  -  zilch.

--------

And then , there is the SESCO  , main forum "secret"      :-/

http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/RudolfHessFlight

Scroll down as far as  Appendix - Documents

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/Section1/swiki/h1/hesstel01r.jpg

:-/

Will  APOLLO reveal   ;D

Hmmm, I think we should be told. ;D

Incidentally, the AS MacIver that letter was bound for was Alan MacIver, Regional Security Liaison Officer of MI5.

No stranger to cover-ups he.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IueB16rW9kQC&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=alan+maciver+rslo&source=bl&ots=AfZEyREWZ2&sig=_qgjZwxVufruGufWBkmhOam8hko&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-xkVUbvXDabI0QWm6oCQAg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=alan%20maciver%20rslo&f=false

Anyone know where Box 5 is? Today it's the big bank on The Mound.

And Major P Perfect! Is that the lad Penelope Pitstop used to chase?

jimbo  -  somebody is following our exchange on this thread   ;)

As of today ,  if you go to here :-

http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/RudolfHessFlight

And click -on  (to enlargen such that you can read) any of the 3-off  Appendix-Documents , then you no longer can   ;D

What happens , you get the  http://photobucket.com/

The Photobucket start screen - demanding that you log-on  ,  of course we are denied whose account &  what secret password we are to use   ;)

Is this a Secret Scotland admin secret   :-/

I would be interested for "Admin."  to comment on this most strange matter   :)

Interesting. Even more so because the docs work for me! ;D

If anybody fancies a career change: https://www.mi5.gov.uk/careers/

Power to the people!!!! ;D

Strange , just checked - the outer Appendix - docs now work for me but still getting the photobucket screen for the centre one :-/

Could be that SESCO is a MI5 front ;) , may be the SNP MI5 (in-waiting) ;D

Well after reviewing the evidence, I'm convinced we've stumbled over... the site of the Holy Grail. ;D

Don't tell Dan Brown. ;)

Some of the early newspaper reports -  I keep thinking give more accurate story , esp. at Eaglehham.  This one  The Los Angeles Times of  14/5/1941 does mention a couple of Home guard by name. Print a bit faint - seems Jack Paterson &  Robert Gibson ?  This front-page seems more comprehensive with details than most I have read - almost 1/2  a broad-sheet.

More interesting , going back a few months on this thread - to the obvious bullet holes on the tailplane of the Bf110 wreckage.    It does state BULLET HOLES FOUND,  with the comment -  He (Hess) said nothing about the 10 bullet holes found in the tailplane wrecksge.  Indicating he was either fired upon by German persuars or was caught in the gunsights of British fighters.  No such action by British pilots has been reported.

http://img.inkfrog.com/click_enlarge1.php?image=100_5378.JPG&username=vintagerocknroll&aid=322902442

Internal page , abt. another half-page  - states German Runaway's Plane Bullet Riddled before Leap.   This reporting does IMHO seem better informed than what can be read in the British Press at the same period within days of Hess's arrival - leading me to believe there was a great deal of censorship.

I am interested in the early newspaper reports of Hess's arrival to Scotland, these are probably the best primary source material (in particular the newspapers in USA and how they reported the event in comparison to the British press   ;)

LEOMINSTER DAILY ENTERPRISE, May 13, 1941  ,  this is quite early - considering Hess arrived on the 10th (late on a Saturday night)

http://www.rarenewspapers.com/view/581851

Plant  Hit  !   tail punctured by bullets.

The British insight :-
Duff Cooper's - claim of first break of Nazi party since the blood purge of 1933.
(I suppose this is from the "authoritative quarters in London source)
also - Hess is sane.

Also (as can be expected)  the Glasgow area is awash with rumours  ,  inc.  Hess wishing to communicate information about the Luftwaffe , well -  the authorities would never be able to silence the fact that Hess's first words as being on the line of I wish to be taken to The Duke of Hamilton.
It is hardly likely Hess would have followed up with the statement - I have come to the coup d'état .

From Germany ,  possibility that Hess was in fact intentionally lured,  (pity the column is part cropped here).

======

After the early Newspapers of  13 + 14 May 1941 , it seems to me that all was sanitized, in particular around the Glasgow area.   The next "primary source material" , other than the little from the Nuremburg Trials  -  seems to be the book  The Case of Rudolf Hess  edited by J.R. Rees and that was published as late as 1947 !

I do have a copy of this book , however IMHO , it is best to read this book alongside similar books about Hess in UK captivety that have been published in more recent times.  These books have been subject to more research about all the named people   ;)

I am interested in the early biography of Hess , prior to the flight to Scotland. In fact there is little biography in any case other than as stated in the books about the flight. Hess did seem to keep a very low profile ;)

However , I did come across this book (published 1978) by F. W. Winterbotham , there is just a little more in the book , however the book is well worth reading in full . At least Winterbotham did meet Hess to get the grip of him prior to him being a prisoner ;)

(Bill = Barron William de Ropp / Bill de Ropp)

"... his flight to Scotland in the early part of the war was quite in character."

This assessment could put all the conspiracy theories to bed. ;)

Get a job lot of rulers with the book Fordy?

Just getting a Scottish manufactured measure of the story so far ;D

Need to find time to peruse through this lot ;D

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-military-police-investigation-reports-into-the-death-of-rudolf-hess-allied-prisoner-no-7-in-spandau-prison-berlin-1987

Nice find. Only drawback I can see is that it's a two bottle investigation. ;)

Next stop Tesco for some cheap Chilean Cabernet.

http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/books/features/gavin-bowd-reveals-some-uncomfortable-truths-in-fascist-scotland-1-2881250

This book may be worth getting for a bit of background information ;)

===================================

amd.

Book Description: Birlinn General, United Kingdom, 2013. Paperback. Book Condition: New. 234 x 156 mm. Brand New Book. On 10 May 1941, Rudolf Hess, Deputy Fuhrer of the Third Reich, entered Scottish airspace in an ill-fated attempt to discuss peace with the Duke of Hamilton. For the Nazis, Hess was the victim of 'tragic hallucinations'. But how far had Hess really flown from reality? Although Fascism in Britain is normally associated with England, and especially the East End of London, and even then dismissed as a marginal political phenomenon, Fascism did find support in Scottish society. Scotland has provided its own cohort of idealists, fanatics and traitors for extreme racist, nationalist and authoritarian politics. From Dumfries to Alness, one of the main ideologies of the first half of the twentieth century found its standard-bearers. But when Fascism crossed the Cheviots, it found itself in a restless part of a multi-nation state, riven by sectarian hatreds. Rudolf Hess felt the natives looked at him 'in a compassionate way', but Scottish Fascism had to carve out a niche in a crowded market for bigotry. In this book Gavin Bowd relates a fascinating and little-known part of our history which reveals some uncomfortable truths which are bound to stimulate debate even now.

Ord. mine via. ABE £9.44 (delivered) :)

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