A listener discovered a fence 'tensioner' in a field near Aviemore in Scotland and wonders whether it is an artefact of a little-known Nazi history. Second World War historian James Holland dampens down such claims by explaining that the Nazi's over-engineered and over-designed even the simplest objects - hence their survival even in the most unlikely places!
Came across dozens of these when I worked in forestry. The last place I recall seeing some was in the early 70s on a fence in front of one of the Swedish Houses at Ardentinny. Never found out where they came from. The correct term is a "radisseur".
I wonder if the presence of more than one suggests they were 'liberated' by Scots who ended up in Nazi territory at the end of the war, and stuffed boxes or bags of the things in their packs to use when they got back home?
I am thinking of those who were conscripted and taken away from jobs where they used such things.
I tend think it unlikely that Scots/Brits would be buying and importing Nazi products, even in the years prior to the war itself.
My guess would be that they were picked up after fences round camps, concentration camps, compounds and suchlike were torn down by the Allies.
The presence of the swastika on the radisseur would, I think, be there to identify it as a piece of Nazi military inventory, and any civilian found to have any of these tensioning their fence would have been guilty of theft, and dealt with by military justice.
Not so sure about the use to indicate that military hardware. I don't know what the Wehrmacht used (eagle with swastika?) but I have expected whatever was their equivalent of the WD or broad arrow. If anything like military forces elsewhere they would be just as worried about someone from the Luftwaffe or other branch of the Nazi war machine nicking something as civilians doing so.
Fencing might be done by the Organisation Todt so again they might use their "OT" emblem for the same reason.
Surprised there is not a webpage on radisseurs, there must be people collecting them!
The Wehrmacht symbol was the straight armed iron cross - looks like a + sign with additional lines on the border.
I wouldn't have thought there was any doubt that anything the Nazis put a swastika on what was theirs, and god help you if you had it and you were not entitled to.
I see someone on Flickr stating that 'Swastika Brand' was common before 1939 - but I think this can be discounted as sheer speculation since Hitler took it as the symbol for the Nazi party in 1920, and I can't him or his SA thugs endorsing the local ironmonger and his Swastika Brand soap, mousetraps, and nails. Mind you, Himmler might have done a deal to get a discount for the old chicken farm!
When did they move Tayport to Brazil?
I must have missed that story, and the programme, since it must surely have been filmed for "How do they do it?"
On the other hand someone making agricultural metalwork in rural Scotland in the 1920s, and perhaps well into the 1930s, might know little about the Nazis. Probably did not get much coverage in the Sunday Post.
There are two possibilities I can think of. One is that they were made here for a German customer. but were part of a cancelled order in 1939, or that they were imported from Germany either before or after the war. the latter would probably make more sense as their use would be totally forbidden post war in Germany, as displaying a swastika in any form was banned, and there may have been a warehouse full of them with no home market. The interesting thing is that modern ones in catalogues seem absolutely identical. apart from the swastika, of course.
Also one of the suppliers says on their website "these are widely used in Scotland" implying that they are not elsewhere in the UK.
Perhaps the reference to Scotland arises from the sheer number of the things sold here, as deer probably eat them when they trash fences.
I'm sure the Fox can comment on how destructive they are, not only to cars, but to property and flora.
I'm not making any sort of claim or suggestion that this is related, and the feature is clearly not a swastika, but I couldn't pass this variation I found for sale on eBay without at least mentioning it it in passing.
Production method looks like fairly cheap and crude pressing, so it seems very strange that they would go the cost and effort of having the four squares machined into the die, which can only add to the cost, yet has no obvious purpose. The tensioner is turned using the simplest of spanners - probably a 'universal' shifter - to fit the flats of the square, so the raised parts of the four squares are actually more of a nuisance than anything else (because the move the spanner slightly further away from the bearing, the turning effect is reduce, slightly, but reduced nonetheless).
And the stamping is so crude, there's no possibility of it being to locate the tool - this square head of the tensioner is much more secure all on its own.
Is this one really the same? It looks like there might be a brass ratchet mechanism on the other side, instead of the pentagon with the five holes. It also does not seem to have a hole for the locking pin. It seems to use the same basic stamping, but maybe the "economy version" with the pentagon and locking pin (with or without the swastika) is the one that is more popular in Scotland.
The spanner used is a special one. It has a big handle and is like a four sided box spanner. It will normally fit on the other end from the embossed disc, ie the end with the split pin. The strange thing about this last example shown is that it has no way of holding the tension. Usually this is done with a short piece of wire passed through the radisseur, or with a ratchet fitted on to it. The ratchet model can only be turned one way but the other can be tensioned either way.
I stand to be corrected, but the radisseur I just posted above is relatively light weight - compared to the example we started with - and the ratchet which holds it in tension is located on the blind side behind the square drive shaft.
Similar models can be found in a number of online catalogues, but the pics mostly too small to really show the detail, even when they catch the inside where the ratchet is almost hidden, so the next pic is of something similar while it still has its label attached - including the word 'ratchet'.
There is an even lighter one which demonstrates that there it is possible to fit a ratchet in though, and they need not be as large as those seen on farm fences:
You can get some really light ones, which I guess you just nip up the nut on with your convenient 'Third and Fourth hands' - while you hold the radisseur in one, and apply the tension with the other :
It can also be found in the 1953 Popular Mechanics magazine - apparently being used to pull a washing line tight, although there not actually a specific caption for it.
Oh they are - if you watch someone with no Common Sense try to pull a friction tensioner tight and secure it.
Two hands work fine - but only if the person concerned works out the difference between the effects of 'leading' and 'lagging' torque when handling a wrench.
It's much more fun watching them juggle two spanners, and not realise it's next to impossible to tighten things if they haven't organised them properly - so that they are turning into each other, rather than away, which makes the job a lot harder - especially when the tension in the wire helps to loosen everything each time they get fed up.
Well I just went out to the garden and spotted this. We used to have a wire fence, but it's now replaced with a wooden one. I had obviously forgotten to remove this post with the others. It has some tensioners, or radisseurs on it. They are of basically the same types as in the illustrations, but with only a split pin on the far side holding the spindle in, and no ratchet or locking mechanism. It is rougly 4" or 100cm long. And no swastika! In fact, identical to the one Apollo has already posted from Ebay.
It's s pity those radissuers didn't have enough surviving 'bits' to positively identify how they locked if there is no ratchet to be found in that design.
I had been thinking that it could be as simple as leaving a longish 'tail' on the end of the wire pushed through the hole in the rotating part of the device, and then just hooking/bending/twisting that end onto the static part of the device, so preventing the spindle from rotating when is released.
I take it there is no sort of 'secret' hidden under the disc part of the spindle - maybe worth a second look?
There's plenty of wire fences around me, it used to be farmland, but all the ones I've looked are fitted with radisseurs that have highly visible ratchets, so there's no doubt about how they work
I think this may be a simple design for short garden fences without too much strain.. If the wire is stiff enough the deformation as it winds round the spindle might be permanent enough to hold it. I'll have look and try to get a better photo tomorrow, maybe removing the device from the post if is not too rusted up. As you see, it also has that square pattern which would seem to be purely decorative. The non parallel sides of the bolt head are not such a god design as they would tend to force the spanner off when force is applied, but being a cheap casting they will be for easy removal from the mould.
Apollo has it right. You poke extra wire through the hole just enough so that it can turn within the frame. When it is tensioned, you take it to the side and hook it over the side of the frame. That needs at least three hands and you have few options as to the positioning. Apollo has also got the torque problem sussed . Mild steel wire does not pull back much but most fences now use high tensile wire which behaves much like a piano string. If the spanner slips just let go or you will only be able to count to nine, or less, using your fingers. Many of these high tensile fences do not use radisseurs. The wire is tensioned using a winch type tool, and secured with twisty grips like those you see on telegraph pole stays, but much smaller. (Edit: Wrap guy links. Just remembered )
I tracked down a few more variations on the name, but none deal in our subject, they were in agriculture, and industrial machinery - but it's a big country, so deeper digging could find more.
The Indian logo above brings another point to bear, in so far as there are individual variations when the swastika appears, especially before the Nazis used it, and I think the variation on the radisseur looks very much the dimensions and ratios that the Nazis used.
Nowadays especially, such symbols are almost guarded and protected by companies in the extreme, with company manuals dedicated them, giving all the dimensions, colours, and rules for their use, and who may use them.
I'd almost expected to find an Indian fencing hardware company fairly quickly
It seems I was wrong about the radisseur on my former fence. It does have a ratchet, an almost hidden and very crude one. The cast spindle has four pawls, and the stamped bracket has a notch. It has no spring, relying on the tension of the fence wire to make it work. I had another look at it this morning in better light, and re-photographed it.
Well ,, I Googled on the Indian sub-continent last night for about 1 hour , I could find nothing for this large Industrial Manufacturing Conglomerate that remotely indicated that they were the manufacturers of such fencing strainer / tensioners.
I gave up whan I came across this when I googled on their military interests , being a web-site giving priority to military interest I nearly posted it then but then considered otherwise .
Thanks for the pic WM, it does make things clearer, and explains the purpose of the four 'squares'.
Given the cost of tooling the dies, even crude ones, to create the features simply did not make sense in such a cheap item if they had no useful purpose.
I too spent a ridiculous amount of time hunting for swastik-a stuff around India, and didn't come up with any of the suggested metal industries, so I think it is safe to classify this as a red-herring.
I also have some experimental image searching tools that sometime dig up articles if the image contains a recognisable feature, but when I tried the swastika radisseurs... all that came up was items similar to those already covered, these being discussion of finds - often in Scotland, which might be a clue as to source (if not another sunburnt-herring! ) - and not providing anything helpful, as far as I could see before my patience ran out.
There must be an answer out there - unless the question has been asked too late, and is indeed something that was liberated as the spoils of war, but there's no still alive, or online, that can tell the story
Could they predate WWII and someone just used a convenient symbol to indicate to turn to tighten?
Due to general patina I have come to the conclusion that they are of fairly recent manufacture , probably in China or India. Some wholesales / retailers may require their own logo trade mark. Otherwise - I agree (turn this way to tighten) they supply this rationalized version - I suggest it is a world market multi-lingual hieroglyph for turn in that direction / if you turn in the other direction it sprags
Ah - well , I do have the advantage of serving a 6 year apprenticehip as a Fitter & Turner in a Toolroom , inc. Die-Sinking in what was the largest drop stamping plant in Europe. C&G Craft & Technicians inc. a Full Tech. Cert. in "Press Tool Design & Utilization". Spent a year as a jig & tool design draughtsman until I tired of it. Made metal moulds for for 6 months , for semi-auto resin/sand cast iron & steel founding. (the bit with the Swastika will be a maleable cast iron item (I doubt if it is SG grade). Worked on aluminium die-casting machines & plastic inj. machines + power presses for 45 years .
But yes , I have been known to be wrong
I will await for convincing proof with documentary evidence of manufacture of Nazi era German manufacture , hot dipped galvanised zinc has a good life providing it is able to dry off (70 years is possible) , however if left in damp conditions the sacrificial wastage is very rapid (hence the complex coat & wrap procedures for such as lighting standards).
I suppose they could have moulded a arrow , but just what culture did manufacture ? Possibly if far eastern a swastika represents a ratchet or sprag clutch better - on that point -dunno-
The problem now being - I am unable to go walking in the woods or on the fells without carring out a thorough examination of fencing accessories.
With all the sheep & deer fencing in Scotland , then there must be some very large venders of fencing products, they are probably the people with the answer , knowing their own & opponents products , attended trade fairs etc.
P.S. The insignia at manufacture stage. This would in fact just be quicky changed insert(s) for the main moulds , such that it is easy & cheap to change depending on who has placed the order.
My observations would be that the "Swastika" rad has nothing to do with direction of rotation, as it's a directionless rad (think about it!) And the squares are just a manufacturers logo, the spindle is the only place to put a logo as the frame's a bent flat bar, punched and cropped.
Spotted the much more common BS rad yesterday, pity I didn't have the camera as a picture's worth a thousand words
You may be only considering the swastika as a ideogram or pictogram type of hieroglyph that has rubbed off on to the north european mind from the mediterranean. I doubt if any of these countries have ever been capable of mass production of such ironmongery for at least four millennia.
The possibilities seem very few :-
1. Germany (manufacture up to the end of WW2) 2. India or China since the container dumping started due to lack of restrictions (Seaforth terminal was being built when I sailed past out of Gladstone Dock as a Junior Engineer 1970)
Hi Tony, the one with the 'Hakenkreuz' sure looks to be from the nazi era. The other one on page 1 looks to be the same. Many German companies have made stuff for Hitler during war times. After they had lost the war, production was picked up. They might just have removed the 'Hakenkreuz' symbol. But I cannot tell you for sure.
we use these things here as well, for keeping the highland cattle at bay, but I have never ever seen one with a swastika. That would be something irritating over here. Swastikas are illegal to be shown in public. (for good reasons obviously) So I cannot really comment on the fence ratchet. I have no idea where this one could origin from. Sorry.
Hi Toni, all is well over here,
Interesting thread with the fence tensioner, have never seen THAT one, but one would think that if they put the effort into it to make a swastika, they would use it on KZ fences and such, but they look different from what I recall from visits.
The Elephant in front of Carlsberg Brewery got a huge swastica on the "saddle side" Its an Asian good luck charm, so I would be more inclined towards the made in India theory.
I don't know if it adds anything useful or not, but I was intrigued to find that quite a few visitors to the Nazi death camps have put some reasonably detailed pics online, often featuring the use of barbed wire for fences and corridors, which inmates were forced to walk along.
What struck me about these is that none of these fences had the wire tensioned.
They were loosely hand-made, with most of the barbed wire being strung between white ceramic insulators, which means only one thing. Not only would anyone landing against such fences for any reason have to contend with the barbs, but also ran the risk of electrocution, since I assume the fences did not carry a charge intended to tickle.
These were all pics of the most well-known camps, so may not be representative of lesser camps.
I haven't been able to dig up any generalised info on radisseurs/tensioners, which is rather odd in some respects, given the 'anorak' treatment some items get!
I was wondering if it was possible to find out when the various designs seen came into use, but no luck.
Pity Billy Connolly has finished his tour of route 66, where he came across the Barb Wire Museum on his trip - he could have had a word while he was there
My observations would be that the "Swastika" rad has nothing to do with direction of rotation, as it's a directionless rad (think about it!) And the squares are just a manufacturers logo, the spindle is the only place to put a logo as the frame's a bent flat bar, punched and cropped.
Spotted the much more common BS rad yesterday, pity I didn't have the camera as a picture's worth a thousand words
Well my research using the normal Goooogle technique turned up the fact that the Swastika and "Broken Cross" , come in two forms , left hand and right hand (apparently it was a Hitler Fuhrership instruction that changed the hand of the chosen one.
For a very long known history the Right and Left hand Swastika have been used to denote direction of rotation (search and you will find origins also in Northern Europe).
Clearly if rotated in one direction it clears whilst turned the other there will be a tendency to snag (sprag).
This is only peacetime barbed wire, so all you have to do is twist a few barbs off the carrier wire, and you can have as much 'straight' wire as you want for the radisseur.
So bang goes my dissertation on the "The economics of peacetime barbed wire usage compared with the wartime requirements for injury" (that title has more meaning if you dig up a piece of World War I battlefield barbed wire, and compare it to the relative cotton wool called barbed wire today), since a picture is worth a thousand words, and this handy example lives along the road:
All the radisseurs found around here are the pentagonal type, and came from ET, but there must be few weak-fingered farmers here too, since many don't have the fence wire bent into the holes to lock them, and are held in place by rusty old nails.
Feeling very much like Captain Mainwaring (who is getting a lot of mentions at the moment)...
I wondered when someone else might spot that: "the rad with the swastika is directionless"
And didn't want to jump in with it as I have hammered all the suggestions that it is used as a directional indicator, and make 'yet another' post doing the same.
But it is true, and the pentagonal rad can be turned either way to the same effect.
I picked up an ET rad last week, in the hope of determining its method of manufacture from the surface markings, but...
Am currently frustrated in this venture as the steel component appears to have been crudely rustproofed by being hot dip galvanised, giving it a fairly heavy coating of zinc which has obscured any underlying manufacturing features, and leaving only the features which froze into the surface of the dip material to be seen.
Anybody know an easy and cheap way to dissolve zinc?
Vinegar or Non-Brewed Condiment if you prefer it on your F&C. Coka-Cola will probably be just as effective or squeeze a lemon.
I have of late been conducting some tests on Galvanized nails for use with Tanalised timber where long life is required.
No doubt manuf. in China , most supposedly quality galvanized nails used to be hot dipped galvanised. Not these - they are not even Spun Galvanized , they are some form of Dry Galvanizing but are not Sheradized.
One clue is that in a box full you hardly get two stuck together (unlike hot dip) , the surface finish for the unwary looks very like hot dip but a bit too smooth & shiney.
The chemical retained in Tanalised timber soon strips the coating off - as does Malt Vinegar
The structure of the dry galving seems to be sponge like as the zinc strips quick (surprised me) , may take a bit longer if hot dip galvanized
I am blaming the new E compliant Tanalith fluids being used , don't know when this later process became common on nails - I do know finding genuine hot dipped galv. nails is like finding hens teeth. I would like to do the same test - somewhere I have some 30 Year + real galv. felt tacks
Have to admit that the tech side of things is becoming interesting.
I have a box of vintage galvanised tacks (roofing felt nails), but with no modern ones to hand (I think - I might have got a small bag in the past ten years or so, need to look), I've nothing to compare with, but will throw a pair in if I do.
The difference between dry and hot-galvanised material is interesting, but not unlikely due to the different treatment.
As I read it, both names actually refer to hot galvanising by dunking the product in molten zinc, but the dry process fluxes the material before it is dunked, while plain hot galvanising has the flux floating on the zinc, so the product is fluxed as it enters the zinc bath.
Although the hot metal dip part of the process is the same in each case, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to perceive these two fluxing processes to be vastly different, and potentially result in different qualities of zinc coating.
Head full of Tanalising stories too - and see how the public fear of word 'arsenic' (like 'radiation') being associated with the original and leading to the E version with copper and other chemical to replace it.
O for the 'good old days' when ladies enhanced their beautiful white pock marked skin by slapping white arsenic powder all over their faces
I haven't looked further - at the newer chemicals - but I would not be surprised to learn they could ultimately be more dangerous than the arsenate - but they don't have the emotive word associated.
At risk of getting diverted, there's a wonderful side story to this thread regarding the appearance of the Swastika:
One of the best Classic Star Trek episodes has finally been broadcast in Germany...
But it was still subject to legal restricitions which still apply:
"By showing this episode Star Trek fans will be able to see the complete series for the first time in its entirety," Doctor Simone Emmelius, editorial director at ZDF, told the newspaper Bild.
Dr. Emmelius added, however, that the episode was subject to a German FSK-16 regulation. That meant that nobody under the age of 16 was allowed to watch, and it was shown after 10 o'clock at night so the "audience is capable of questioning the complexity of the episode".
'Nazi' Star Trek episode Patterns of Force airs for first time in Germany
An episode of the cult television show Star Trek in which Captain Kirk and Doctor Spock dress up as Nazis was aired for the first time on German public television on Friday night, 43 years after it was made.
The episode was originally cut when the 1968 series was first shown on German television in the 1970s owing to sensitivities over the country's Nazi past.
In "Patterns of Force" the crew of the Enterprise land on the planet Ekon, which is at war with neighbouring planet Zeon, sparking comparisons with Zion.
Intent on wiping out what they refer to as the "Zeonist pigs" the Ekons have begun mimicking the Third Reich. Brown shirts patrol the streets, towns are cleansed of Zeons who are "poisoning the land" and the "Fuhrer" is in command.
Newsreaders also talk of preparations for the "final decision" which will annihilate the Zeon race.
At one point Kirk and Spock are captured but make their escape by wearing stolen uniforms, with Spock wearing a German coal-scuttle helmet to hide his pointed ears. The Vulcan looks so at home in the uniform that Kirk says he "looks like a very convincing Nazi".
The plethora of Nazi uniforms on a show billed as family viewing was regarded as too provocative in the 1970s especially as at one point it describes Nazi Germany as "the most efficient society ever created".
While I don't think there is much to surprise with respect to the reluctance to air the episode which feature the forbidden Swastika symbolism in Germany, I have to admit that I am rather surprised at the negative comments, as the eternal message of victory by Good over Evil was not exactly subtly hidden in this episode.
And the classic scene...
This is not the only Nazi-themed episode...
"The Killing Game" is a two-part episode of Star Trek: Voyager, the 18th and 19th episodes of the fourth season. A Hirogen hunting party has taken over Voyager and put its crew to work as living holodeck characters. Their minds are controlled by neural interfaces which make them believe they are their characters, and the Hirogen hunt them in two holodeck programs. The holodeck safety systems are disabled to heighten the reality, and they can be killed and injured, with Voyager's advanced medical facilities being used to heal the wounded, so they can return to the hunt time after time.
In the second part of the episode pair, the Hirogen create a spectacular program: Toulouse in Nazi-occupied France circa 1944. The Hirogen find Nazism fascinating, and are using the program to experience life in a military bent on conquering the planet. The Hirogen take on the roles of Nazi officers patrolling the town of St. Clare, with Voyager's brainwashed crew as their prey, members of the French Resistance.
I was just about to mention that my pickled rad is still bubbling away - more updates if anything happens, or it stops.
The pentagonal types don't come with ratchets - they are locked by putting the wire through one of the holes in the pentagonal head on the spindle, and hole in the body.
I was looking at a few of the ones in the field along the road recently, and noticed that a number of them had nails inserted to lock them (4" or so). Not a good idea, as these rust in the open, unlike the galvanised steel fence wire that should have been looped into the holes.
With the four-sided head for the tensioning tool, or spanner, having five holes in the fixing head means that the installer does not have to make a full 90° turn with the tool, which might not always be possible. Square drives are just about as poor as you can get as the 90° angle makes it very difficult to turn shaft that has blocked access. A hex head and conventional spanner allows 12 options, with more on alternate designs.
The five option on the head means that the full 90° does not need to be achieved in order to line up the holes between the head and the body, making the device more practical.
More holes would be more complex to make
One more than needed seems to be the norm.
I have just been refitting a ancient sprung gate-closer, and this has three faces on the lock, but four holes in the tensioner, so the two are always out of step and can't get jammed against the gatepost.
The right hand (clockwise) Swastika is used by these religions which practice ahimsa (non-violence) since ancient times.
It should never be confused with the left-hand (counterclockwise) Swastika adopted by Adolf Hitler for his Nazi movement.
Let's assume it's yellow too:
Blue Swastika stands for infinite celestial virtues. Red Swastika stands for infinite sacred virtues of the Heart of Buddha. Yellow Swastika stands for infinite prosperity. Green Swastika stands for infinite virtues of agriculture
You'll have to excuse the delay in finally delivering this promised post - I forgot what the damned thing was called and that the thread started off being about a Swastika, so couldn't work where the thread was
What I referred to as the 'pickled rad' after I dropped in a bottle of vinegar to get rid of the zinc coating came out perfectly - that recommendation of vinegar was spot on, and a little alarming given how weak an acid vinegar is... and that we happily eat/drink it!!!
The biggest problem was the poor quality of the underlying steel used to make the rad - you only have to look at it and it bursts into rust.
I've had to clean it a few times, and eventually resorted to soaking in it oil, so that the surface could still be seen.
The surface of the zinc-stripped rad is completely uniform, with no seam lines of any sort visible anywhere on its surface.
Still looks to me like a rough sand casting, which could be made by the hundred in a sand mould.
The only marking from being worked is on the square-off drive end, which I suggest was simply squeezed into the metal while it was hot and soft.
All the rads (with markings) have ET on the end of the square, or on the five-sided locking device - anyone care to hazard a guess at the meaning?
Of the supplier sites I have looked at, none have names that correspond to ET, and this was true of those I managed to track back to manufacture as well.
Seems odd, or I have done the old trick of missing something completely obvious
Reduced images are shown below - click on them and wait for a moment to see the full size version, then click it to return.
The light was not good enough to get good depth of field in the close-up - really need a sunny day
I would agree it looks like a casting to me, however I would take issue with your comment “The biggest problem was the poor quality of the underlying steel used to make the rad - you only have to look at it and it bursts into rust.” You’ve just soaked it in acid and etched the surface which as well as removing any protective scales increases the surface area and traps acid. If you do that to any carbon steel regardless of “quality” or product form it will start to rust immediately with the humidity in the air.
You’ve just soaked it in acid and etched the surface which as well as removing any protective scales increases the surface area and traps acid. If you do that to any carbon steel regardless of “quality” or product form it will start to rust immediately with the humidity in the air.
Yes, that's true.
It was actually a year ago (not "just") I soaked this rad in vinegar, and when the zinc coating had gone...
Gave it a splash and dash in water then left it to dry overnight to see how it looked when dry. Was it a lovely shade of brown the next morning? It could almost have passed for something carved out of wood [sarcasm mode] I didn't bother washing it properly in plain water after that, or giving it a scrub to remove any loose material left on the surface.
I didn't decide to give it a few days (that ended being weeks each time I forgot about it soaking away in change baths of clean water just to make sure there was no vinegar left.
I didn't bother checking to see if it turned a nice shade of rusty brown any slower or quicker after it had been washed. [/sarcasm mode] Perhaps I was a little extreme.
If we assume I am not so dumb as to comment on how quickly any grade of everyday steel will rust, then all I meant here was that once it was neutralised, it was at the quicker end of the "Let's get rusty" scale than the slower end.
More in line with BMW car bodies of the 1970s, made out of tin cans and scrap from East Germany, as compared to the near lifetime corrosion warranties (with conditions of course) that you will get on the same bodies today.
Fair enough, but all uncoated carbon steel is inherently prone to rapid corrosion if you don’t protect it in some way. The main reason modern cars are much less prone to rusting is that paint systems, surface preparation and controls during application have all improved dramatically, nothing really to do with the quality of the steel.
Most car body corrosion problems were resolved by the use of thinner higher strength steel (that can be almost impossible to weld or spot-weld without specialist equipment) , try drilling it even with a cobalt drill. These steels have less scrap input (impurities reduced) at the LD converter stage + the use of lower grade but Zintec on panels
You claim your warranty when the coating breaks down and rust appears, not when the steel perforates through corrosion, although I would agree that a higher strength substrate (higher quality to some) will be less prone to flexing and subsequent coating damage. Zintec is actually steel with an electolytically plated zinc coating which like Apollo’s galvanising will improve the corrosion performance of the substrate.
Fair enough, but all uncoated carbon steel is inherently prone to rapid corrosion if you don’t protect it in some way. The main reason modern cars are much less prone to rusting is that paint systems, surface preparation and controls during application have all improved dramatically, nothing really to do with the quality of the steel.
Need I say I was referring to the bare steel, when there's no protection?
The example I gave of the tin can BMWs was real. At least according to the motoring press after the fact in the day, when it broke the story.
If you start off with rubbish steel that is already full of impurities and not of good quality, then it's going to rocket off in the direction of corrosion even if protected, but in those days they weren't, so they went even faster.
I should say I'm not referring to the capacity of the steel material itself to corrode, but how it behaves if it is made with junk - which prevents it from being well protected, or in the case of cars of the 1970s... not protected at all. So when you bath them in salt water for a few Scottish winters - doom is the only conclusion.
You couldn't even prepare or paint them to protect them, such was (I presume) the porosity of the stuff, and sub-frames would even separate from bodies. The one I had basically lost its boot, and when I sold it, I locked and sealed the boot so the dealer would not take a glance inside and ask me how I had managed to paint the interior of the boot to look exactly match the road below (or maybe just where the rest of the boot was)
Even the edge where the rubber seal usually sits and protects the metal from moisture eventually disappeared, and the boot lid just sat on air.
Modern cars are pretty good, but the killer still remains that simple little scratch that breaches the coatings.
They may be described as 'self-healing' by some - but they forget that this it temporary, and you still have to restore proper paint over the exposed metal to keep it protected.
During the 1980's , I had quite a good Elcometer (coating thickness gauge) , for checking paint dry film thickness. One day , I decided to check out a Ford Escort basic 1300 against a Mercedes Benz W250.
I forget what the thicknesses in microns was , however the Escort was consistent all over and the same thickness as on the W250 roof, the rest of the Merc. body was 50% more than on the roof.
While most run-of-the-mill stuff has obvious uses, clients always assumed we were 'expert' users of their kit because we were certified to set it up - but nothing could have been further from reality, as setting equipment up seldom means using it as it is used in the wild.
And the Elcometer was one such, as the actual certification was of the various thickness standards in the box. The meter was just an indicator that had to read correctly what was applied - otherwise it needed 'fixing'.
One of the most unusual boxes we ever opened contained...
A gadget for grading the hardness of pencil leads!
There is such a thing, so that drawings can be properly prepared to specification, and it was the property of a fairly advanced graphics design and production company near Glasgow.
I assume it is gathering dust in a cupboard now, as they went on to bigger and better things, and everything was coming out of CAD systems last time I looked.
The infamous 'Swastika' shirt from the unsuspecting Fiorentina (known for their fascist leanings in WWII) made its debut on ch4's Football Italia series,caused an uproar, banned immediately after the game.
Interestingly, given our information divined earlier, the Swastikas rotate in BOTH directions on this shirt, so what can it mean?
I think it means that the fascists have few brain cells, and the banging around they get from playing football knocks any sense that there might have been there, out of their heads, and they have no idea that the direction makes a difference, and thought they had been... 'clever'
Quest is repeating Series 1 Episode 3 of How It's Made, and one of the four subjects is...
I'm not suggesting there is one in this episode, and the commentator is usually provided with a good script pitched at the level of the layman, but just once every so often, there is a terrific howler in the narrative, and it's almost as much fun watching for it as it is watching this excellent series that gets the cameras 'up close and personal' in a lot of factories that most people would never have a chance of getting through the door for a look.
The bit I like best is the lack of noise and smell (and heat! ) associated with some the more extreme places they visit.
Visiting some factories can leave you in need of a good lie down after you have spent the day there - or a wire brush on a piece of string to clear out your 'tubes'
One factory I spent a day in left me still able to dirty the water after having had a good soak in three baths and changes of water
I did read somewhere that this "Swastika Buddha" had originally been gilded - must be still detectable in places.. The material is known - so not a dressed (fettled) casting. If it were a casting (that it is not) , then all the ancient civilizations knew of the "Lost Wax Investment Process" - so there would be hundreds identical on the planet.. The work involved to chisel out (craft) from a piece of meteorite , even using the finest of western manufactured tools inc. die-grinders (dental type) & carbide / diamond cutters would be months , not weeks - and that would be the single item not a small batch. Then to distress and fake away all modern tooling marks , probably by tumbling / hand sanding with paste & a stick (as the ancients would have done) IMHO - not on. Hardly a viable manufacturing proposition as a völkisch tourist trinket
Before getting to the pic below, you should be aware that using any non-Chinese graphic on a car is a "big thing" for some owners in China, especially English words. Since few of them speak English, this can be amusing since all they seem to do is pick words that look good, or are the right length to fit the space available. They often combine words to make phrases that make no sense, and even have the words misspelt... or even with the right letters in the wrong order!
Even the companies out there that do the work don't understand what ere printing - one recent pic showed a tuning shop advertising the sign for Hennessey (a major tuning shop that works on Ferraris of 1,000 BHP+), but had no idea that they had actually pasted up a sign for Hennessy Guitars.
With this in mind, you'll find a lot of chatter on the web about how malicious the driver of the Audi below, pictured on the street in China, is. But the reality is that if they think anything other than the shapes and colours look "kewl" (I don't know the Chinese for "kewl"), they probably just think the graphic appears in German and the car is German, so the two go together:
I have tried in some other historic forums and groups I wander around in, but apart from them all going away and unfortunately digging up all of the info we already have from online sources, nobody seems to have anything new or independent to offer.
Even the story mention, although dated 2013, actually dates back many years (and although I didn't look, I'm pretty sure the original was mention here some time ago, if not in this thread itself, somewhere in 'the Bunker'.)
Maybe these rads really are quite old stock, and nobody does really know the origin.
If I had to pick, then for the moment at least, I'd be tempted to go with the Indian foundry/works.
Weird swastika story shows how easy it can be to make a boo-boo if you are not a decent historian interested in the war and its connections.
Alternatively, maybe somebody very well clued up, and who knew exactly what they were doing in order to extract max publicity for minimum effort...
Manchester United has apologised after a 'swastika-style' logo was sent out to fans in a newsletter alongside the Nazi affiliated title "New Order".
The similarities between the logo, which spelt out the letters MUFC, and the Nazi symbol were pointed out after United Uncovered was issued via email.
Manchester United said any offence caused was "entirely unintended".
It said the title related to the band New Order, and that the feature was about the club's young players.
The statement, which was emailed to fans, said: "In this week's United Uncovered email newsletter, a graphic spelling the letters MUFC ran alongside a feature about Manchester United's younger squad members entitled New Order.
"While the headline was intended to reference the band of the same name, it has been pointed out that the graphic had design similarities to a swastika which, combined with other connotations of the phrase 'new order', has caused offence which was entirely unintended.
"For this, United Uncovered unreservedly apologises."
The club's head of media David Sternberg responded to a number of complaints over Twitter.
He tweeted: "The creative is completely inappropriate; we apologise unreservedly and are taking appropriate internal action."
In the week when Hindus celebrate the holy festival of Diwali, this documentary tells the story of one of their faith's most sacred symbols - the swastika.
For many, the swastika has become a symbol synonymous with the Nazis and fascism. But this film reveals the fascinating and complex history of an emblem that is, in fact, a religious symbol, with a sacred past.
For the almost one billion Hindus around the world, the swastika lies at the heart of religious practices and beliefs, as an emblem of benevolence, luck and good fortune.
I note the Balmoral War memorial has both left and right hand swastika carvings - fair enough , balanced.
However , the explanatory plaque - I can't quite agree with the statement that the symbol had no sinister associations at the time the memorial was designed. I am not suggesting that the swastika association with The Thule Society should have been known (if it can be expected that the beliefs of the Thule should have been common knowledge).
Can it be expected those involved with the memorial should know more from Scottish origins of the Swastika
I don't think it's correct to say that the Thule would have been common knowledge at the time the Balmoral monument was conceived and designed.
The world of the early 1900s did not have the transparency and easy spread of knowledge that we enjoy today, and few would have been interested, and fewer would have known of the connection.
(Even in the 1960s, it took 12 hours for the Russian envoy in America to get a message to Moscow! This led to the later setting up of the hot line, after Cuba.)
Unveiled in 1922, this monument would have predated that event, and there would not have been any "sinister" connections, as noted on the plaque.
For example, the earliest Scouting use of the swastika was on the first Thanks Badge introduced in 1911, and it was also used as a symbol by the Boy Scouts in Britain, and worldwide. Robert Baden-Powell's 1922 Medal of Merit design added a swastika to the Scout fleur-de-lis as good luck to the person receiving the medal. It would not be until 1934, when the motives of the Nationalist Party (Nazis) as led by Hitler changed the perception of the symbol, and led the Scouts to seek its change, and a new British Medal of Merit was issued in 1935. Powell was widely travelled in India. Incidentally, like Kipling, who also used the symbol
Seems even the British National War Savings Committee used the swastika as the emblem During World War I, so the sinister side of things was not something that came to be relevant until the Nazis started to promote it as their symbol, and began the rise to power, and the World saw them parade below it.
It's a bit of an 'aside', and not really all that relevant as I am about to partially answer a question I pose, but..
Having gone to check on the use of the swastika as something sinister (assuming the generally means for the West or Europe in this context), I was curious about the explanatory plaque on the Balmoral Monument, but there is no date inscriotion, but, from its wording, it clearly postdates World War II, but no way to tell by how much.
The Thule was a front for The Germanenorden and the Swastika was their logo - so that is the earlier direct link. However Germanenorden and Thule were supposed to be secret societies.
I keep reading about the swastika , but only since this thread have I taken real notice , Joachim Fest had a lot to say about Hitler's claim to design.
A book I recently purchased (it has a Rudolf Hess chapter) , also has a Chapter "The Swastika" starting at page 141 BUT this is splitting hairs on the claims & counter-claims on a number of aspects. Ref. book - Hitler and the Occult by Ken Anderson. I don't think it resolved technically what is a right or left hand swastika To decide if a good or bad swastika - you need to know the hand , if Francis King had it all wrong , then that is a serious matter
I suppose the nazification is more the direction / position of the Swastika , and colours involved black,white and red - that was the unique part.
According to the BBC the key date was 1920 , but in 1920 was another war to be expected with Germany ?
In full context of the article referred to, the BBC does not actually claim this to be a key date, merely that it was the year the Nazi party adopted the crooked cross as its symbol.
Until the 1930s, and the realisation of what the Nazi party represented as Adolf Hitler became Reichchanellor and seized Germany for himself as dictator, it was merely a symbol until then, without the association of the excesses of the Nazis attached.
The Swedish company ASEA, now a part of Asea Brown Boveri, used the swastika in its logo from the 1800s to 1933, when it was removed from the logo.
Lotta Svärd was a Finnish voluntary auxiliary paramilitary organisation for women. It's symbol was designed in 1921 and included the swastika, because The blue swastika was the good luck symbol used by the Swedish Count Erich von Rosen, who donated the first plane to the Finnish White Army in 1918 during the Civil War in Finland.
So 1922, in Scotland, would not be a year when there was any reason not to use the swastika for decoration, as its history, especially the the connection via India, would have made it a natural choice.
Was another war to be expected with Germany?
I bet the smart money was already considering the draconian terms of the ending of World War I, and there were people planning for something. It was only a matter of time before Germany cracked, and that was one reason why Hitler was able to carry the people with him, as they felt persecuted.
Interesting , something I have not come across before. The van looks a bit like a Smiths (Gateshead)
The British Army of Occupation of the Rhineland were there until 1929 , so I suppose they must have had the feel for things & spies / agents in rest of Germany. Not a subject / time period of Germany that I have read up in great detail . It would be interesting to read up the odd book published up to 1929 by a person who was actually there
I'm not commenting on the action itself, since I don't know if any of those involved had any personal motivations, or if they could claim to be unfamiliar with Russian history, or even current affairs.
What I do know is that Russia and the countries that were once part of the Soviet Union still have issued over German forces and Nazi troops that fought on their soil.
Doing something like this in territories formerly claimed by the Soviet Union is a VERY bad idea, if not thought out in advance. Unless provocation is the intended result.
Within some towns, they were seen as liberators, freeing the people from the Soviet oppressor, and even joining the Nazis to fight against Soviet forces.
Today, there are still wide divisions, and Neo-Nazi groups are openly hostile, with beatings and shooting taking place as opposing groups come together.
However, from reading assiociated with this thread, I also now know that the swastika is one of the most common symbols used throughout Baltic art, so this is a hard one to call.
Probably just another case of modern hijacking of the once common and ancient symbol, and opportunists making an issue.
Russian hockey fans and anti-Nazi groups were outraged after dancers supporting a Latvian hockey club laid out a symbol resembling swastika right before a game with their Russian guests. The Kontinental Hockey League found no problem with the symbol.
The idea of the ice show ahead of Sunday’s match between Russian HC Yugra and the Latvian hosts, Dinamo Riga, was to mark the 95th anniversary of the Republic of Latvia. A part of the show featured dancers forming a number of national and folk symbols with the help of the Latvian flags.
One of those formations was, however, taken as an insult and a provocation by fans of the Russian club, and later by many other Russians, after a photo of what appeared to be a huge swastika laid out on the stadium’s ice went viral in the media on Wednesday.
The performance, which was carried out by two dance groups of Latvia’s National Armed Forces and was staged by a Latvian choreographer, has since become the subject of a public controversy.
Might be a better idea to see problems in the Nazi salute and the Olympic flame, rather than the poor old hijacked swastika:
In this Olympic salute, your right arm should be held out, slightly to the side, and pointing in an upward angle. Likewise, your palm should be out and your fingers touching. The Nazi salute is more or less performed the same way, except it is customary to hold your arm straight in front of you, instead of partially to the side. As you might imagine, the Olympic salute fell out of favor after WWII. Despite this, the International Olympic Committee hasn’t yet replaced it with a different salute, even if nobody would dare use it anymore for fear of being misinterpreted.
The similarity of the salutes ultimately led to a great deal of confusion during the 1936 Olympics in Berlin over whether many of the non-German teams were saluting Hitler using the Nazi Salute or whether they were using the official Olympic salute. This even fooled German audience members who sometimes misinterpret the Olympic salute given by some teams as the Nazi salute and subsequently cheered more for those teams as they passed, such as the standing ovation the French team received when they gave the misinterpreted Olympics salute. Because the same confusion came up during the Winter Games a few months before, Britain decided to abstain from giving any kind of salute, so as not to be misinterpreted as saluting Hitler with the Nazi salute.
Incidentally, I included the reference to the 1936 games because it is notable that the Nazis created the Olympic flame relay that is embraced so insanely today - the Russians have just sent it up to the space station, and I think it is off down undersea in a submarine next. Clearly the Nazi origin of this part of the ceremony has been conveniently forgotten/ignored.
The slightly more recent tradition of the running of the Olympic torch to bring the flame to the host city from Greece is not based on any Ancient Greek tradition, contrary to popular belief and Nazi propaganda at the time of the inception of the tradition. Rather, this tradition was brought about during the 1936 Berlin Games.
When Hitler came to power in 1933, he was against hosting the Olympic Games. Promoting internationalism and multicultural celebration wasn’t exactly his cup of tea. He also felt the Games were “an invention of Jews and Freemasons” and some thought he’d cancel them being hosted in Berlin (and of course there was much controversy surrounding even holding them there in the first place, given the Nazi party’s viewpoints didn’t exactly hold with Olympic ideals).
However, Hitler was convinced by Joseph Goebbels, the Propaganda Minister (yes, they had one), that the Games would actually give the Nazis a great platform to demonstrate Germany’s “superiority” as well as that of their athletes, not just to the world, but to Germany’s own people. As Goebbels said in an interview in 1933, “German sport has only one task: to strengthen the character of the German people, imbuing it with the fighting spirit and steadfast camaraderie necessary in the struggle for its existence.” Six months after taking power, Hitler announced in a meeting that he had decided to allow the Games to be hosted in Berlin.
The torch relay was one vehicle of the propaganda machine. The idea was thought up by Carl Diem. Diem was the Secretary General of the Organization Committee of the Berlin Olympic Games, as well as the chief organizer of the 1936 Summer Olympic Games and longtime Berlin sports administrator.
Hitler and Goebbels loved the idea of a torch relay from Greece, precisely because it would fit so well into the Nazi mystique they hoped to project during the Olympics. They felt it was fitting to show a connection between Ancient Greece and the modern German Reich, with Hitler’s belief being that the Ancient Greeks were Aryan forerunners to the modern German Aryan populace.
I know this is not a swastika, but in terms of regime, it is similar.
It's also interesting to see how insane this story is:
A Scot who destroyed an “illegal” plaque from the era of General Franco near his Galician home is facing a court struggle to clear his name.
Cliff Colman’s act – deemed vandalism by a local court – is seen by many Spaniards as a protest against the country’s reluctance to fully confront its fascist past.
A controversial 2007 law, the History Memory legislation, formally condemned the regime of Francisco Franco, who ruled Spain from 1939 until his death in 1975. One of the law’s provisions obliges local authorities to remove fascist symbols and other items considered offensive from public spaces.
Yet the dictator’s legacy lives on in plaques, street and town names, and in several massive monuments such as the Victory Arch near the prime minister’s official residence in Madrid.
It would seem, as claimed in the text of this story, that even though the Franco symbols are obliged to be removed by law... they only have to be removed when the local council decides they are such symbols.
He hasn't quite grasped the principle of operating the system, and should perhaps have lived there for a little more than 4 years, and maybe learned to speak Spanish, and some Spanish law, then played silly bu...
While we've recently seen efforts by those who use the 'old' or original meaning of the swastika as it was prior to Hitler and the Nazi's adoption of the symbol for their own ends, it's an uphill battle.
Europe is much closer to the founder's home, and the neo-Nazi groups there are built on survivors and followers of the old regime, so it holds great sway where they survive and have no qualms about using violence and weapons, beating and killings to maintain their strength.
It seems that while they are not as strong, America's neo-Nazis are far from dormant, although they find less ready acceptance there than they did in the past.
The BBC just featured one story, where a group of such extremists moved (would you believe, from nice cuddly Canada) And tried to take over a North Dakota town, run coloured people out, and walk the streets carry guns with his skinhead pal - for which they're now in custody, each facing seven felony terrorism charges and, if convicted, between 10 and 35 years in prison.
Surprise... the pair pleaded not guilty to the charges against them.
Clockwise from left below: Craig Cobb; A sign he put up in Leith; One of the flags he flew outside his home
A stunning Federal Security Services (FSB) report on the nearly two million highly classified top-secret documents obtained from the United States Department of Defense (DOD) run National Security Agency-Central Security Service (NSA/CSS) by the American ex-patriot Edward Snowden states that this information is providing “incontrovertible proof” that an “alien/extraterrestrial intelligence agenda” is driving US domestic and international policy, and has been doing so since at least 1945.
In just one example of the many outlined in this FSB report, it shows that with this “alien assistance,” at the end of the 1930’s, when Nazi Germany possessed just 57 submarines, over the four years of World War II it built 1,163 modern technologically advanced submarines at its dockyards and even put them into operation.
Well, that proves it beyond all doubt.
Aliens gave Germany the most advanced technology in the universe... U-Boats!
On a farm deep in the countryside 100 miles (160km) west from Sao Paulo, a football team has lined up for a commemorative photograph. What makes the image extraordinary is the symbol on the team's flag - a swastika.
The picture probably dates from some time in the 1930s, after the Nazi Party's rise to power in Germany - but this was on the other side of the world.
"Nothing explained the presence of a swastika here," says Jose Ricardo Rosa Maciel, former rancher at the remote Cruzeiro do Sul farm near Campina do Monte Alegre, who stumbled across the photograph one day.
But this was actually his second puzzling discovery. The first occurred in the pigsty.
"One day the pigs broke a wall and escaped into the field," he says. "I noticed the bricks that had fallen. I thought I was hallucinating."
The underside of each brick was stamped with the swastika.
It's well known that pre-war Brazil had strong links with Nazi Germany - the two were economic partners and Brazil had the biggest fascist party outside Europe, with more than 40,000 members.
But it was years before Maciel - thanks to detective work by history professor Sidney Aguilar Filho - learned the grim story of his farm's links to Brazil's fascists.
Argemiro dos Santos is another survivor. As a boy, he had been found on the streets and taken to an orphanage. Then Rocha Miranda came for him.
"They didn't like black people at all," says Santos, now 89.
"There was punishment, from not giving us food to the palmatoria. It hurt a lot. Two hits sometimes. The most would be five because a person couldn't stand it.
"There were photographs of Hitler and you were compelled to salute. I didn't understand any of it."
But after several years, Santos had had enough.
"There was a gate and I left it ajar," he says. "Later that night, I was out of there. No-one saw."
Santos returned to Rio where, aged 14, he slept rough and worked as a newspaper seller. Then in 1942, after Brazil declared war on Germany, he joined the navy as a taifeiro, waiting on tables and washing up.
He had gone from working for Nazis, to fighting them.
"I was just fulfilling what Brazil needed to do," says Santos. "I couldn't have hate for Hitler - I didn't know the guy! I didn't know who he was."
Santos went on patrol in Europe and then spent much of World War Two working on ships hunting submarines off the Brazilian coast.
Not sure this makes sense - I can't see how a PoW was going to be making these without a suitable workshop, but I did receive this:
I worked on a farm once and found one on a line of fencing and asked the boss about it , he stated it was made by german pow housed near by and they sent out work camps doing fencing and other jobs . they had some work don by them the fence is still there today he said it was there mark to show they had don this work .hope this helps.
Concise look at the origins of the swastika, and possibly why Hitler adopted it.
So why did the Nazi’s use the swastika on their flag? Well Heinrich Schliemann, who discovered the symbol in the site of ancient Troy, theorized that it was a symbol of great ancient religious importance to his Germanic ancestors. Basing it on the fact that this symbol was found often on ancient Germanic pottery and thus must have somehow migrated down to his present archeological site. Obviously, given we know now that this symbol was prominent in most cultures throughout history, the part of this theory thinking the symbol originated in Germany was dead wrong. The work of Schliemann eventually intertwined with the völkisch movements; with the swastika being a symbol of the “Aryan race”, a concept that came to be equated with a Nordic master race originating in northern Europe.
Hitler thus was familiar with the symbol from thinking it was an ancient symbol of an ancient Germanic master race. He was also familiar with it as a boy at the Benedictine choir school at Lambach Abbey, Upper Austria, which Hitler attended when a child. The school had a swastika chiseled into the monastery portal and also the wall above the spring grotto in the courtyard.
When Hitler created a flag for the Nazi Party, he sought to incorporate both the swastika and “those revered colors expressive of our homage to the glorious past and which once brought so much honor to the German nation.”; red, white, and black being the colors of the flag of the old German Empire. He also stated: “As National Socialists, we see our program in our flag. In red, we see the social idea of the movement; in white, the nationalistic idea; in the swastika, the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work.”
So why did the Nazi’s use the swastika on their flag?
Probably the best explanation - there is a small Chapter about the Swastiks , in the book by Ken Anderson "Hitler and the Occult"
The reference are sound , I would say
Because of its alleged Aryan origins it was taken up by the German extremist movement in both Germany and Austria in the 1890's. Then there is :-
Adolf Hitler , Mein Kampf, trans. Ralph Manheim (London:Hutchinson, 1974), p. 451n.
So - from the horses mouth - you seem to have it
This book then goes on :-
It was also used on the mastheads of some nationalistic magazines before World War 1 and spread to them to the "Wandervogels" , the pre 1914 German youth movement whose member were taken with it as a symbol of Aryan manhood. Many "Wandervogels" who served in the army joined the Freikorp following the war and painted the swastika on their helmet.
Then we have Note 4.
Francis King , Satan and Swastika (St. Albans, Herts, U.K.) Mayflower Books, 1976) , P.116.
Then it goes on to explain the direct Freikorps link to the Nazi party and Hitler.
The above is quite true , you have photographs of Frikorps in steel helmets with the Swastika clearly hand painted on the front , I may be able to find such photograph easy in a book today & show a photograph
I referred to the Olympic flame, and how it was not actually something based in tradition, but was something that dates from the 1936 games, which were held in Berlin, front of Hitler.
An audio presentation of the story... which was staged to connect the Reich to what it would claim was ancient Greek tradition, and from there, wrote it into history books of the time. This was the creation of the myth, and got it into print, so ensuring its perpetuation. Oh,and that the Olympic rings came from ancient times. They didn't. They were carved on a stone to mark the site where that first Nazi Olympic flame was lit, and someone mistakenly assumed that stone was ancient.
Usually, I'd point out that Chinese car owners are often keen to have stickers on their car with words, especially English words, regardless of what they actually say, or whether or not their spelling is correct. Just having English words is apparently 'kewl', even if not understood, mispelled, or with bad grammar.
I'm not sure in this case, as it seems there is something of a World War II revival of popularity going on over there, and interestingly, Germany is said to be the more popular of the two sides!
Surprisingly level headed comments after that item
This is the sort of thing where it's a pity the person who started this nonsense is hidden behind anonymity, as it would be more interesting to know who they are, and what their motivation for raising the subject is.
Clearly, after 75 years, the claim of people being offended and upset is bogus.
It's more of a mystery as to why the council is entertaining the question, and not just issuing a statement to the effect that it's a decorative motif which, like the Balmoral monument decoration, was not seen with the benefit (or otherwise) of 20/20 hindsight that some are free to enjoy today.
There are still some fun comments though, as one or two suggest the DM is behind this, and is also ignorant of the history of the swastika.
Having twice in my 1960's scouting camp days at "Warren Mill" near Hexham (we with our WW1 era Ex-MOD tents) , first time sharing field with Girl Guides (anyone going near will be sent home)
Second time , sharing same field with German scouts (anyone going near will be sent home)
I will always remember the speed and quality of a rope bridge put up by the Germans over the River Tyne , a real achievement we could never do (even after several "Patrol Leaders Traing Courses at Raby Castle" , no German marching seen - their leaders must have been Ex- Hitler Youth
Best bit about all these stories is the mention of building owners etc (from the pre-Nazi period, when the swastika had not been hijacked) who tell those who demand their removal to "Get Stuffed" - or words to that effect.
These people are quite insulting to those they address their demands to (and the rest of us, as they assume we are stupid and don't know the difference or the history), as it is generally clear whether or not the device is used as originally intended, or is being shoved in people's faces as symbol of neo-Nazi worship.
According to the source, this is the scene at a rally for a Nazi party candidate in Germany (but there was no more detail from the source):
Interestingly, while few people bothered to comment on the candidate, most were interested in the barrier surrounding him.
Congratulations were offered by many to the designer, noting that the barrier base design meant that as a crows moved towards it, their own weight served to keep it in place.
And not a swastika was seen all day
I tried to make some sense of the line given by the source, about the "German Nazi party" (and the Naziz being disbanded and not reformed a far as I know, at least not by that name) but being a little bit apolitical, I don't have good sources to hand, but found this:
There is no nazi party in Germany.
There is the NPD or "national democratic party germany" which is famous for being on the right side and this picture may show someone from the AFD (Alternative für Deutschland / Alternative for Germany) which is a quite new party, not much more than a year, which is also considered to be right.
Widely considered racists but still not a Nazi party.
Looking through some pics of aircraft on roads, this intriguing image showed up:
A German Pfalz plane, shot down near Arras on 17th October 1918, on display at the Lord Mayor's Show, 9th November 1918.
Unfortunately, there's no way to see the other side of the fuselage, so we can't tell if the 'reverse' swastika is intentional, or merely a reflection of one n the other side, and which points/rotates in the 'normal' way for what was to become the Nazi use.
Some of the commenters actually picked up on both the rotation, and the early use of the symbol.
There are more aircraft on the road in the source, including our Concorde heading to East Fortune
It's a while since we had any new swastikas, so a couple of arrival are handy.
No date or location for the first, but it would be easy to fix the date to within a day or two, and the location looks easy to identify for someone who might happen to know the building.
This second one seems to be typical of the Chinese approach, as they haven't quite caught on to the fact that Germany has a flag that avoids the Nazi symbol. The car/tuning industry just seems to do what it likes without checking:
I'm not fluent enough in the local lingo to have a stab at the country this was caught in (there are a few characters on the number plates, which give it away), other than to guess it's the Middle East as opposed to the Far East like China or Asia, where we've already encountered an apparent love of this symbology without comprehending what it would actually have meant for those embracing it...
As in "Come and have a look at my oven, and you can have a free shower too".
Since the original posts - this one is a real qualifier - just not near Aviemore, like the forrest tree plantation , (as thread title)
I am still looking for my first fence wire Swastika tensioner , we are still looking for the truth , I am now of the conclusion that they could go back as far as pre-WW2 , galv. can under certain circumstances last a long time , electricity pylons that I know went up in 1959 (proof of village manhood was witnessed climb to the very apex) , now seem to be getting first prime & finish paint
It was a pic of one those 3D stereoscopic viewer system that had images of Germany, Hitler, and the swastika, up for auction.
I can only imagine someone took offence or complained, and had it removed from the hosting service.
Don't see why, given the other pics here are still obviously there.
There was nothing neo-Nazi or suchlike about it, it was merely a historical artefact up for sale.
I can't redo it now - I don't keep online material for reuse
Yes , I think it would be a complaint
I have noticed that if I post a photograph (that is mine) on a Forum , then it seems to be very quickly grabbed and can be seen on Google Images , am I correct that they have software continually scanning with OCR to get it in the correct Image search terms - I doubt if they have thousands of staff in front of screens filling a warehouse copy/pasting , to the best of their limited ability. Are you able to best explain
Always looking for problems - they seem to like using their imagination against jcpenney ads (and, to be fair, others - maybe they think they will be able to sue for $$$ ).
I'm always surprised that one of them has not shot Kitler, or gone to court to try and have the unfortunate feline euthanised ( as they say over there ) on the basis that 'he' promotes and supports neo-Nazis.
While the one customer review griped about the price (£90 original - so no great surprise there, that seems ridiculous), I noticed another author review, which referred to another book:
This book is 'a history of visibility'; it shows how the swastika became the key device in the Nazi colonisation of the visual field. It does not deal with what the swastika 'means' but rather with how the contradictory messages of racist ideology were given form in the swastika as symbol or 'brand'. This book was described by Stephen Heller, in Design Issues (Autumn 1995) as `one of the most important books about design history and design's role in political and social persuasion that has been published to date'. Heller is the author of The Swastika Symbol Beyond Recognition (Allworth Press 2000).
I have been searching for some time for a photo of this stone. It is the Cambusnethan stone, found in an ancient graveyard near Wishaw in 1898, and is believed to have been carved around the year 900. It is thought to be part of a cross shaft. The design in the centre certainly looks like a Swastika. It is now housed in Summerlee museum in Coatbridge.
I did a search for planes captured by the Nazis. I don't know how reliable this site is, but it contains some information. Including about a captured Spitfire fitted with a Daimler engine. Captured Allied Planes and here: Daimler Spitfire
As noted, we certainly had our flings with the odd German aircraft sent up with British markings (helps with not being shot down, if nothing else ), so although I hadn't come across the corresponding activity in Germany, I didn't really doubt the fact, just never heard of it.
I'm a bit surprised not to have come across it before, as I've read through more than one or two stories regarding the history of the Spitfire, and it strikes me as remiss of the writers who prepared those tems never referring to such a thing. I think it's a relatively significant chapter in the story, and should be much better documented in such works.
The paint on the pic I found looks to me as if it matches some of the layout on the airframes shown in the articles mentioned, so it may be a genuine pic, or if not, is at least based on someone having seen that imagery.
Looks like we need better history lessons and education in India
According to the person who took the pic below:
"This Hitler clothing store that angered many people in 2012 and got a lot of criticism from around the world. The owner wasn’t aware that Hitler was a monster who was responsible for the death of around 6 million people."
The photographer needs a little schooling too, since 6 million was the death toll amongst the Jews, with Hitler causing some 60-85 million (and still rising according to some) depending on where you look.
It's sad to read the reaction of people shouting for relics such as this to be destroyed.
It's a shame they are so polarised in their opinion (which they are hopefully grateful that they can have without being 'disappeared' during the dark of night) that they cannot see that their own calls are at least as bad as the Nazis they seek to vilify.
Hopefully, NO valuable artefacts of ANY kind will ever make it into their hands.
The WORST thing that could happen is that the hard examples of a past which SOME people STILL seek to deny reaches these people, and are destroyed forever.
Such an act is more fitting of those seeking to hide the past, and those who wish to resurrect it (for their own benefit).
As far as baubles go - these must be very RARE - they need to be safe in a military museum showcase It had not crossed my mind that such things existed , I was more of the belief that the NSDAP did not go along with Christian traditions - possibly some Nazi would have destroyed them on sight . Possibly they are a decoration but not a festive tree decoration
The stills at the start of the film are without a shadow of doubt taken from Startforth side of the River Tees , looking towards the town Barnard Castle , the bridge is the "County Bridge" (Startforth being part of North Riding of Yorkshire until early 1980's when it joined up with County Durham) . The street scenes - I am 99% certain are taken in Galgate , Barnard Castle - my home town
Perhaps 60 years or so there might have been some validity, but nearly all of them are the workings of idle minds with nothing productive to do, or sad people who really need to apply the phrase 'Get over it' - although given most of these 'complaints' are tenuous at best, I doubt any of them arise from people who really have a valid connection.
It's akin to the people who make it their business to seek justice for the poor black/coloured people every so often, and despite being white (in the majority of cases reported in the media), start targeting shops selling golliwogs as being purveyors of racist memorabilia.
I only pick that as an example that turned up in the north of Scotland a while back, and as I understand it a little old lady that used to enjoy running her little toy shop in her old age was so shocked by the accusation that she folded the business and gave up.
Assuming that story is accurate - who suffered most? Black/coloured people, or a little old lady who would have retired and closed her shop in a few years anyway, but was effectively driven out of business by activists.
As for the 'Holocaust' pyjamas...
Why didn't anyone complain about the horizontal stripes being a sign that Zara was backing the Red or the Commies, since horizontal stripes are still the format of the t-shirts in the Russian navy to this day?
I saw this in the Independent. Just as a long shot. I thought I would try looking for this on Google Earth, but, as expected, did not succeed. What I did notice however, was that almost every street in the town of Pomerode has a German name, so the swastika cannot be explained away as an ancient good luck symbol.
Looks like I was right about the story of FOUR baubles being wrong, and a pic of the box of SIX has appeared.
Although there is nothing to suggest it, other than the idea, like the swimming pool, the person behind the box pic asks if it is proven that these decorations are actually Nazi and not just 'good luck' original swastikas.
While it.s probably unlikely, I mention simply because I am sure most of the world will assume Nazi, without even thinking about it.
And this slips neatly into suggestions that the swimming pool swastika is Nazi, and was put there by a Nazi who escaped the war.
You escape Nazi Germany, are a (presumably high-ranking) Nazi, on the run from the various Jewish Nazi-hunters who want you dead, or at least tried and imprisoned, and you are going to place a giant sign that will be noticed from the air and could be reported to the authorities.
Of course you are... that makes perfect sense.
Consider that it has no red surrounding.
Do you think a dedicated arrogant Nazi, or sympathiser, would go to the trouble of a having a Nazi (as opposed to non-Nazi) swastika laid in the tilework of their pool without a red border or other adornment usually seen with the Nazi version?
The BBC had an article about Nazi sympathisers in Brazil before the war. BBC-The Brazilian ranch where Nazis kept slaves I suspect the swimming pool might date from that era. They include a photo of swastika embossed bricks which were pre-war.
The BBC had an article about Nazi sympathisers in Brazil before the war.
I suspect the swimming pool might date from that era.
That seems unlikely. In those days, this is almost 'The Back of Beyond', and getting materials and equipment there would not have been the simpler task they are today. Apart from possibly being unlikely as a construct in that area pre-war, the police appear to have fixed its date as 13 years ago, which would have been 2001, and much more in keeping with the installation of that sort of 'luxury'.
Remember that we now have all sort of weird people on the Little Cumbrae after it was aquired by some guru-worshipping yoga fanatics that gave freely of their fortune to make it a 'retreat'.
Who knows what symbolism, and other mind-altering goodies one might find there today?
Danger 5 is an Australian action comedy television series on SBS One which premiered on 27 February 2012. It is set in a bizarre 1960s interpretation of World War II and follows a group of five international spies on a mission to kill Adolf Hitler and thwart his plans of world domination.
Had to pick this one out for special mention, as the recent Tin-Tin animated film was shown over the festive season, and was so bad it made all the original animated series look like intellectual classics...
I may be wrong here, and it is a long time since I saw the Herge Tin-Tin animations now (the used to be shown on TV fairly often, but seem to have evaporated - no doubt many are not considered PC), but I'm pretty sure he did have swastika wearing Nazi goons as his enemies somewhere in those episodes.
We really need to start getting rid of the PC brigade and its pals.
Drawing a swastika in the snow is NOT a 'Hate Crime'. And this is not Germany, where the swastika is outlawed.
However, writing an offensive word just might be, since it is something that could be directed at and target an individual or group.
Or are the authorities so desperate to up the crime stats and claim bigger budgets to deal with such trouble?
I am serious, as there are many cases reported in the media where a case is classed as 'racist' since it ups the possible penalties and seriousness of an offence which might otherwise be classed as trivial.
That previous link has three pretty good summaries of the pre-Nazi swastika in general use, and bears repeating for reference:
The only point I'd suggest in need of more detail is the 1933 reference.
Hitler adopted the swastika around 1920 (from our earlier accounts I think), and finalised it a few years later (1925, Mein Kampf), but it was of course only in the later years that it came to grow from a local symbol to become a worldwide symbol of Nazism.
Other detail may bear checking, but this is a good start.
The Finnish connection is interesting, and I spotted this swastika almost hidded in the Training Air Wing insignia:
Among the longest-lasting legacies of Nazism is the residual stain they left on the swastika, which up until 1933 represented life, prosperity and good fortune in various cultures around the world. When the Carlsberg brewing company expanded, J.C. Jacobsen adopted a 12-pointed star logo for his labels, while Carl Jacobsen adopted a swastika, sometimes with four dots within its arms and sometimes not, as the logo for "Ny Carlsberg" ("New Carlsberg") beer—a reference to the purity of its ingredients. After 1906 the two were often combined, with the swastika within the star. By 1940, however, the rise of Nazi Germany and its perverted interpretation of "purity" had led Carlsberg to abandon the swastika permanently—and the subsequent German occupation pretty much assured that it would not be re-adopted.
Another "casualty" of Nazism's rise was the emblem of the 45th Infantry Division, a National Guard unit whose members came from Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Oklahoma. Given its regional heritage, the division adopted a yellow swastika—a good luck symbol among southwestern Indians—on a red square, representing Spanish colors. As war loomed, however, the insignia was dropped for several months while ideas for a replacement were proposed, until in 1939 the swastika was replaced by a yellow thunderbird.
To give a third example, Finland's air force, the Suomi Ilmavoimat, adopted a blue swastika on a white disk, based on the good luck amulet of Swedish volunteer pilot Count Erik von Rosen, in 1918 (a full 15 years before Adolf Hitler came to power), changing it to a white-blue-white roundel only after its conditional capitulation to the Soviet Union in September 1944. Although it fought as a cobelligerent with the Axis, Finland was a parliamentary nation and its armed forces, whose ranks included communists and Jews, clearly don't meet Nazi criteria.
Funny I have not come across it, I have come across others along the same lines, such as Fatherland (a best-selling thriller from 1992 by English writer and journalist Robert Harris):
The Man in the High Castle (1962) is an alternate history novel by American writer Philip K private. It won a Hugo Award in 1963 and has since been translated into many languages.
The story of The Man in the High Castle, about daily life under totalitarian Fascist imperialism, occurs in 1962, fifteen years after the end of a longer Second World War (1939–1947 in this version). The victorious Axis Powers—Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany—are conducting intrigues against each other in the former US.
I'm tempted to say "Poor guy" and reflect on the ignorance (as in knowledge, not attitude) that some people have regarding World War II.
We don't know his background or family, and while some of us (even young 'uns) have reason to look at this aspect of history in detail, we can forget that others have no interest, and whole generations have no idea. The latter being why I decry ANY destruction of artefacts or sites.
If it was me, I would be likely to fly the flag and say "To hell with you all"...
Because he is really taking it down because of adverse reaction on stinking Facebook - and there's no way on Earth I would do anything on that basis!
I've actually just weighed into the owner of a site that supports a software package that plays audio and video files, almost destroyed by a big company that ruined it (AOL, another rat company).
Instead of setting up a real web site and or forum and or creating a Facebook presence, he has ONLY set up a Facebook group.
This means that no-one can even see the site, or download the software unless they first JOIN FACEBOOK, thereby being forced to grow its membership.
He even has the cheek to apologise, but ask that everyone join Facebook to get access to the group, even if they don't want to support Facebook.
I told him where he could put his group (and there is no sunshine there ).
Fortunately, the developers that took the software over have a real web presence.
I followed some comments elsewhere (ie, not after this news item), and was fascinated to see that after the first commenter failed to appreciate these were performers from a show (based on quite an old Mel Brooks musical comedy film), he was followed by a pack of bigots as bad as Nazis, and who described the performers as various sorts of criminals and pro-Nazi supporters (those were the polite repeatable words used), and wanted them bundled off to Israel to be placed on trial and jailed there for spreading Nazism.
Scotsmans WW2 "tank" = FV433 Abbot "self-propelled gun" , early model it seems from mid 1960's
Looking at the clip again I still thought it was a tank, due to the design having a rotating turret, in addition to elevation/depression, but reading more detail confirms the Abbot is a 'self propelled gun'.
But since it's The Scotsman, as opposed to the DM, and excuse on the basis that the appearance means you would have to know the details to avoid making the mistake
I learned from this too, as all the SPGs I'd come across to date couldn't rotate their guns - probably a side-effect of my only having seen a few examples from World War II (and thinking I knew it all )
There is a fine distinction that I am to be honest always
If it is a "tank gun" then it is RTR (Royal Tank Regiment) or Cavalry Regiment esp. if a light recce tank like Scorpion. In theory IIRC a "tank gun" rotates 360" where'as a "tank-destroyer" does not always (some of the Nazi types had just a bit of gimbal)
Howitzer , has more gun elevation - so that is RA (Royal Artillery) , of course - if it has back-doors - then it is RA
Then you have such as Charioteer , that set off as a Cromwell gun tank , then turret converted to self-propelled anti-tank gun , Regimental manning
Home made flag of the Kuna Yala indians in Panama:
Here's a thought...
I'm coming to the conclusion that suppression of the swastika is now causing many more problems in the real world than could arise if it was used freely and legitimately.
Because it proscribed (and I would not argue against this probably being right, for now, in places such as Germany) by some, or at least actively suppressed, it becomes a way for activist (alright, neo-Nazis and their sympathisers) to get EASY publicity. Just turn up somewhere, wave a flag with a swastika on it, and lo and behold! the world's media will beat a path to it in order to write a story.
How about we turn the table?
The swastika is no longer considered interesting when the neo-Nazis 'buy' free publicity by displaying it.
When they wave it, instead of running and photographing it/them and covering many column-inches and web news pages with it... nobody bothers or raises an eyebrow.
This sort of thing would a be a noon-event before it got online:
When somebody uses a Swastika legitimately - like the flag above - THAT story gains the headlines, and educates people about what the swastika was, and is, and we stop re0nforcing the Hitler/Nazi meaning, because that is all we are really doing nowadays, with the constant suppression and coverage of generally negative aspects of its use.
I'll answer my own question.
Too much like common sense.
(And we know where that has gone in recent years )
Pretty sure there's word that describes this fairly accurately.
Let me think for a moment...
Does not make sense:
In a letter to the Ham&High, Mr Smith said he had decided to withdraw the pendant “as we do not wish to cause offence of this type under any circumstances”.
But he pointed out that having canvassed opinion amongst Jewish colleagues, friends and clients, just one in 12 expressed offence at the sale of the pendant.
He added: “In our opinion the pendant in question has no relationship to fascism, it is an historical article which was most likely a good luck charm when it was manufactured.”
Assuming this is all correct, then what the auctioneer has done is bow to bigotry and action of a few noisy thugs.
Let's expand that to Brown shirts...
I've noted this before, with examples related to colour, where people selling old style toys have been attacked by (white) people who think that their stock incites racism - yet coloured people asked if they were upset by the toys basically said they couldn't care less. (Last case I recall was a little toy shop in Alford).
The 'problem', IF there is one, seems not come from the supposedly offended communities involved, but the self-righteous few that see it as their 'duty' to speak up for them, even though they are not even members.
More of a passing observation when I saw this pic.
Communities (or I suspect noisy busybodies who think they speak for them) get up in arms and makes all sorts of noises when a swastika appears, even it has no connection to Nazism, yet this sort of behaviour is generally ignored by the same people.
Could it be that they are cowards at heart, and while they don't expect people auctioning jewellery to smash their faces in or beat them up, they think twice and consider the hospital stay they're likely to have if they stick their noses in the face of someone like the guy below?
One where I am free to live my life without being forced to share rooms and enclosed spaces where people fill the air with their filthy pollution?
Or one where I am free to occupy such places without being forced to breathe the products of their filthy habit, BUT they are still free to indulge in the privacy of their own homes, or even in public, out of doors?
Staying on topic. however...
I find it interesting to observe that the people in the cafe are people who would be barred from a Nazi establishment, and probably be arrested and thrown into a camp, or just summarily shot in the street if theu entered.
None of them appear to conform to any definition of Aryan, or Master Race, and would be classed as 'sub-human' by Nazis.
So why are they in there?
Perhaps the cafe should be treated to a visit from some modern day neo-Nazis, some White Supremacists, or maybe some Pegida supporters, and see who's left inside once they've vetted all the occupants?
Pretty sure this use of the swastika and the Fins was mentioned before, but not with this restoration:
Original source brief and not to accurate, but said: "A restored Hawker Hurricane in WWII Finnish Air Force colors (when allied to the Axis). The Finnish swastika dates from WWI. Finland was between a rock and a hard place. Attacked by the USSR, Germany was the only country to offer substantial assistance. USSR's aggression towards eastern Europe is not well remembered."
Looking at the pic, I can't help but feel this is over-reaction.
Fair enough to report it, but talk of 'sick racist thugs' and defiance seems to escalate something that is in reality fairly trivial graffiti, and a reflection of how making something racist immediately gets attention.
Better if this was removed and the incident dealt with quietly.
This is more like a 'road rage' reaction.
It's hardly likely anyone will ever be caught or end up in court - unless they boast about it, and then get what they deserve.
That would be better publicity than has been given so far.
It's hard to see how more fuss could have been made had the material been chiselled and carved into the stonework.
Things need to be proportionate, and toned down to a reasonable level.
Did Krit and the Bellamys influence use of the swastika by the National Socialist German Workers Party? Many Krit cars were exported to Europe and Australia. On December 29, 1914, a New York Times newspaper article states that WWI was responsible for the bankruptcy of the Krit Motor Car Company, to wit: "Lack of business, due to the European war, is given as the cause of the failure."
That means an American car company was the first to put swastikas on cars in Europe. Krit produced bus / truck models that could carry 15 people. Were Krit buses / trucks used in WWI by German military, by the free corps (freikorps), or the Ehrhard Brigade? Did Hitler see Krit cars or even ride in them?
Krit (1909-15): The Krit Motor Car Co. was organized in July 1909 tobuild a car designed by Kenneth Crittenden, who had worked at Ford andRegal. The former C. H. Blomstrom Manufacturing Company’s factory on thecorner of Wight and Lieb was acquired to build the first cars as 1910models.
The Krit Motor Company was having financial problems, and in 1911 WalterS. Russel of the Russel Wheel and Foundry Company led a syndicate topurchase control.
A six cylinder was offered in 1913, but sales were down. More changeswere made to streamline the body in 1915, but could not stave offbankruptcy.
An interesting feature of the car in light of events later in thecentury was that its badge incorporated a swastika, thought to be agood-luck symbol. It wasn’t.
The Soviet swastika was so popular that paper money printed with the dates 1917 and 1918 carried large swastikas in the center of the bills (on denominations of 250, 1000, 5000, & 10,000). Three of the denominations bore three separate swastikas across the front (the 250 denomination bore one swastika). The Soviet swastika notes continued to be issued after the 1917 revolution(s).
Nice (not so) little update on the swastika formed from trees in a German forest, and some history summarising the background to the use of the swastika by the Nazis:
Being an intern at a German landscaping company during 1992 meant Ökoland Dederow was handed the tedious task of looking through aerial photographs for irrigation lines in a forest located in East Germany. During the course of this, Dederow came across something that definitely was not an irrigation line in photo 106/88. Approximately 140 larch trees in the middle of forest of green pine trees had turned brown in the autumn, forming a large swastika. He immediately showed the picture to his boss, Günter Reschke, who chartered a plane to take him over the section of forest and saw the symbol with his own eyes.
The forest swastika in Brandenburg, Germany most likely had been around since the 1930s, based on estimates of the age of the trees. Why did it take more than a half a century for anyone to discover it? One factor was that the larch trees only changed color, making the swastika visible, for a short period of time in the fall. The other factor was that the symbol can only be seen from the air and private planes were for a time banned from flying over the region. Any commercial planes flying over the area would have been too high for the passengers or pilots to see this.
No one knows who bears responsibility for the forest swastika in Brandenburg. A number of rumors surfaced shortly after Dederow discovered the symbol. One possible explanation places the blame on nearby villagers. One of their own was caught listening to a BBC radio broadcast in secret and ultimately sent to the Sachsenhausen concentration camp for this act. The story goes that the villagers then planted the trees in the shape of a swastika to show their loyalty to the Nazi Party. One more version claims the planting occurred in honor of Hitler’s birthday when a local Nazi leader ordered it done. Alternatively, a newspaper, the Berliner Zeitung, wrote that the Reich Labor Service constructed a road in a nearby village and the trees were planted in gratitude for this road.
Whoever really planted it, the forest swastika in Brandenburg is not the only one discovered in Germany after World War II. National Socialist foresters commonly created swastikas via planting trees during the Nazi regime, many of which have only been discovered relatively recently. For instance, in the 1970s, United States soldiers in Hesse discovered such a swastika and the numbers “1933” on a hillside. Another such swastika was discovered in Hesse during the 1980s, and a backwards swastika constructed of Douglas firs was found in Wiesbaden in 2000.
Adolf Hitler’s surname is thought by many etymologists to derive from “Huettler” or “one who lives in a hut”. Further, “Nazi” isn’t just the name of the one-time prominent political party, but also the Swahili word for “coconut”.
I didn't want to say anything and plant ideas before it was seen on its own.
I do agree that there appears to be something 'odd; about the edge detail and surface finish of the black area around the swastika though.
On the source, all it says is that it was snapped by someone as they were on their way to an exam. No more though, could guess it was the US, as so much comes from there, but that would be a pure guess, sp really worthless
Well, pretty much as I suggested (I think) that the Indians don't really have a clue about what happened in World War II, and their education system would not seem to be keyed into, again because they had no real direct connection.
And I'm not forgetting the Indian troops recruited by their British master at the time, but this was a tiny thing in the life of the Indian sub-continent.
I'm afraid the simply see the swastika, and in OUR opinion, make a grave mistake.
But to them and their education, our reaction is something of a puzzle.
Looking at comments about the UK curriculum, I suspect World War II could come to be seen in the same way here.
Actually, I had little or no significant World War II education at school, and all I know came later, for my own interest, and that in recent years, as I discovered the reality of my past from that time.
David Starkey was once worth hearing (as opposed to listening to - I make the distinction), and some years ago used to present some fairly interesting radio programmes.
But this success seemed to go to his head, or he is suffering some sort of age-related decay, and his ramblings became increasingly contentious (and his output already fell into that category due his personal views being allowed to influence his content).
This just seems to fall into the category of 'More of the same' now, and about as much worth paying attention to as any of his rambling in recent years.
Free publicity for making a mad and guaranteed attention-grabbing statement, feeding the media?
Maybe we should be watching the horizon for a new book from this twit.
Or some other venture where he needs/wants his name in the limelight.
Could send him to Carmunock...
They could stuff him and hang a copy of his new book around his neck and let him advertise it there
Remember I said India had little reason to join in with the rest of the world in having a problem with the swastika - and not because it was a symbol for good there for hundreds of years before the Nazis snatched it?
Here's some more along the lines of what I suggested and had in mind, and shows how it was not just based on World War II, but was more deep seated, and started long before that second conflict:
Back to the old 'invisible until seen' swastika problem in Germany.
I really to begin to wonder why they have to descent into hysteria when this happens.
It should be pretty clear when someone is planting or displaying a swastika and using it to make a point, and when something has gone awry, and a shape like a swastika has arisen in something with a pattern.
In a country where the swastika is not allowed and not seen in general, I'm not surprised people don't see it when it arises - and why there are some people who still see it everywhere.
But all the fuss and police intervention being called for seems to be overkill.
Yes, call them if those who made it don't hold their hands up and agree to deal with it, but not if they say 'Oops, sorry, blush, and delete it.
I don't know what this one looks like, I can't see any image included with the story:
I hope I'm not being expected to offer any sympathy.
Smack-heads deserve all they get for the choice they make, and that include putting anything that has a swastika on it in their mouths.
They have 'fun' - the rest of us pick up the cost of dealing with their consequences.
Just tonight, I was watching an ep of Police Interceptors where the recent drug test confirmed a guy stopped for bad driving was on cannabis.
He was in tears as this means a near certain 12 month ban.
The officers had no sympathy, as he cried about just managing to get his licence, then told them he took cannabis every day, to which the answer was he should never be behind the wheel of a car any day, and that this was all his own choice.
We need a real version of 'sci-fi town', and big walled off area to put all these people in, and leave them alone to let them do as they like - away from the rest of us.
You have to love the way the DM comment section is practically guaranteed to have calls for such relics to be destroyed - in this case melted down.
One might almost be tempted to speculate if the readership contains many 'Holocaust Deniers' and similar, whose real aim is to see ALL such material destroyed, so that they can point at history and claim the war, Holocaust, the SS, Hitler, etc etc never happened, and that there is no evidence of it either.
No , just lasting classic from NSDAP design school that works best, portable , stable if loaded unbalanced , improved garment display in comparison to circular type , less floor space for same quantity garment load as circular type + firm foundation of Honda Valkyrie 5 spoke runic wheel with castors
Given that little Adolf managed to make a mint of Mein Kampf, one might be tempted to wonder why he didn't carry on and charge a licence fee on every swastika by declaring it his design, and claiming copyright.
Isn't that the dictatorship little country ruled by that nice Mr Putin?
I no longer serve as an outlet for the stories, but for those watching, it's intriguing to compare how we can suffer a little pubic moral outrage when kids and pop stars happen to trip over the Nazi or swastika option, while in Russia, they will often disappear, or find themselves collected in the dark of night, and find themselves in a room with bars and locks.
I don't mention them as it's become seriously hard to separate fact from reality - especially the stories of violence and beatings they claim the authorities there submit them to.
This material (such as this story) seldom appears in the media, esp of countries that have reasonable relations with Russia and the nice Mr Putin, and want to maintain them.
Perhaps surprisingly, the best place to look can be Russia's own news services, but these are still controlled by that nice Mr Putin, or the state, and present them as stories of troublemakers and radical, in articles and reports written to present them as criminals and dangerous to 'normal' people.
I keep having a occasional look , seems strange we have never been able to determine the actual manufacturer / importer.
If only I could find one on a fence - then I suppose I could do a estimate of age of fencing
Tanalised posts are not what they used to be , I have had some rot through at the base after only 10 years. I know of some tanalised fencing that is trash after 20+ years. I once helped demolish a old hay shed , uprights approx. 4" x 12" pair of nailed together , the parts in the ground were as good as new & had been there abt. 45 years
Hot dip galvanising away from coast in clean air can have a long life but I doubt if 70 years is possible , acid rain must have been everywhere - probably still is at a reduced amount
My neighbour asked if he could 'plant' a section of planked wood panelling in the far corner of our bordering garden areas, on my side of the fence. He provided the posts and cement (and dug the holes ) to mount it on the border. It was about 2.5 m, maybe more per side. It was also about twice as heavy as I expected it to be, how the two of us managed to move it into place (plus his wife, who is not much more than 4 ft tall!!) still amazes me. I seriously thought we were going to end up under it at one point.
While I got a bit of free (very) robust partition, it also had the downside of closing off the only gap behind his garage, where we used to have the odd 'Chat over the garden wall'
He said it was part of a shed he'd had for years, and was, as far as he could tell, around for the best part of 100 years.
One side was painted, the former outside of the shed, but the other side is bare, or at least almost black.
It looks as if it was treated with creosote, but this smells for ever (I have a few pieces that are decades old), yet there is not a whiff from his wood.
Nor is there any rot visible anywhere.
Being discoloured, it's not really possible to see the wood and make a guess - just that it's heavy.
Would be interesting to know what type of weapons the Highlanders were shooting at the aircraft with, assuming the holes in panel were in fact made as a result of that firing, and not gained at some other time.
Without the context of the display (this looks like a museum setting), it's not possible to be sure when the damage was done - before, during, or after the event, when the aircraft was on the ground.