The base of the great Donjon is still a considerable way above river level. Also I do not believe the well's water level would rise, would it? Unless the water was under pressure, it would just stay alittle above the level of the water-bearing layer of rock it originates from. Correct me if this is wrong.

However the well probably goes much deeper than the base of the donjon, and such a passage would have to originate in that building, safe from internal attacks. If the well goes deep enough it could rise to the other side.

The water level in a well that is not being used will settle slightly higher than the water table in the surrounding ground. However, that water table will change naturally over time.

In the area in question there has been extensive mining in the last 200 years. The flow of water through, and collapse of, the spaces created will have had an effect on the water table. It could be higher or lower than when the well was built, and by up to two or three meters even.

To start to work it out would require knowledge of where mines went, and at what depths, and of the rock inclination and faults in the surrounding area. A bit beyond our collective resources.  However, I would expect the inside face of the well to show wear from the movement of the water surface during its 100s of years of operational use, and this would be a simpler way to determine what change there may have been in level.

Navigator

There shouldn't be any problem sending a camera down on a wire during a normal visit, although the water level could pose problems. It is not as if anything is being disturbed.

The geological surveys using OS data from the late 1800's are excellent, but I do not have a sheet covering Bothwell Castle. I believe the statistical accounts record the strata really well to. However the inclinations might be harder to track.

the geological survey also marks most, if not all the visible faults

After visiting the priory site last night, I could only find one boulder blocking an entrance. This is a natural rock void filled with a collapsed boulder and is perfectly natural. It exists in the tributary ravine on the north side of the Priory promontory. I have little doubt that this is the 'cave' spoken of by Fred Mitchell. This really does not do the man justice because it is ludicrous to think this as a tunnel entrance. I doubt he was describing anything else.

Interesting to look at the face of Blantyre Craig with the Christ carvings. I could also see lots of old climbing pitons and the carving of David Livingstone is rather good.

Did you happen to take any photos of the David Livingston carving.

Despite being repeatedly assured that this is there by others, I have been unable to locate this in previous visits - I suspect I have managed to look everywhere except the correct spot, or suffered selective blindness while staring straight at it

Can you give a clue as to where one should look, using perhaps the reclining figure as a reference point to start from?

Interesting considering I found it in the pitch black! LOL!

It is situated shortly south of the first Christ Carving on the vertical sheer face at about head height. If you are not sure of your bearings, thats facing the crag, to the left of the first Christ carving. It is a profile depiction of the man, with an explorer's sun hat or whatever its called. You know the sort World War I soldiers wore in Egypt. It is not as worn as some descriptions suggest. It is in plain view.

Apparently on the Castle side of the Clyde there are other carvings mentioned by someone who knew Tommy Hawkins, but I have seen no descriptions or pictures, and that is saying something considering I have seen practically every reference work, manuscript, photograph etc.. If any information exists, it is in private hands.
If anybody knows more please tell me where to find the others.

THE FOLLOWING RELATES TO THE MAIN THEME OF THIS THREAD:

Quoted from : By Bothwell Banks, by GEORGE HENDERSON AND J. JEFFREY WADDELL. 1904

"It must be confessed that the foregoing details
leave unsolved the great question of the nature of
the relationship between the castle and the priory.
Both were built about the same time, and in a position,
as we have already seen, which forces the conclusion home
upon us that it was chosen by deliberate design, and
yet history gives us no hint of that close connexion
which we should expect In any case each would be
affected by the fortune of the other, alike in war and
in peace. With the castle, the priory yielded to the
strong tide of invasion, and in the hour of victory for
the national cause the strains of triumph would float

"O'er the arched gate of Bothwell proad,
While many a minstrel answered load ;
When Blantyre hymned her holiest lays,
And Bothwll bards flung back their praise."

Tradition has supplied the missing link by creating
an underground passage between the castle and the
priory, which has been turned to account in the
domain of fiction by Jane Porter in her ' Scottish
Chiefs." While this has been generally scouted, it
is as well to remember that no systematic exploration
has been made of the priory, and until that has been
done it is as well to avoid any dogmatic statement on
the subject. Besides the tradition of the subaqueous
passage, there is one to the effect that the Scottish
patriot, William Wallace, once took refuge here from
his pursuers his hiding place was suspected, the
priory was surrounded on at least two of its sides, and
Wallace was compelled to leap from the rocky precipice
on which the priory stands. Until recent years, a
hollow from which a spring issued, bearing a rude
resemblance to a gigantic human foot, was pointed out
as the spot where be had alighted. This legend may
have some foundation in fact It is probable that the
great patriot in his wanderings may have taken refruge
here, and may have escaped either by means of a rope
or some equally practical method."

May I humbly point out that "first Christ Carving" has no meaning unless you have the person that you are describing it to is standing beside you looking at the same thing, your "first" carving could be my last depending how I approach, that's why I tried to hint at pointers in relation to a specific feature

It's like saying "higher up the hill" etc when trying to pinpoint something for a stranger - they're still lost if they're not standing at the same place on the hill as you.

Still, the main thing is it's been seen, although I don't envy you a visit there in the dark.

I've passed some unsavoury characters there in the light, groups of hoodies, found recently trashed cars dumped only metres away, seen evidence that the cars were vandalised/burnt only days before one of my visits, and found the place to be used as a drinking den on other occasions. I run away from it when dusk falls

I've been given the same suggestion of other carving from those passing on repeated information, or hearesay, but no first hand visitors have reported or pointed at them, and I was not offered any similar information from Mr Hawkins relatives when I was in contact, so I'm beginning to think these are stories, of the same type that used to attribute the carvings to Bud Hawkins, and not Tommy.

On the other hand, I never say never, and they may just be "lost"

THE FOLLOWING IS A QUOTE taken from the forum on Blantyres Ain Website, its by susan irvine.

"tommy hawkins ..blantyre carvings

Hello

having visited these carvings when i was a young child. i can confirm that it was tommy hawkins..who was bud's wee brother that carved them,

the reason i know as my mother was 7 when he was a very close friend of the family and thats when he started carving them...my mum is now 54......so the carvings are roughly 47-55 yrs old.

every day tommy went down there with his chisel and a wee widden hammer .....but he never told anyone what he was doing....my mum is sure he done a livingstone carving the reason why ppl arnt sure/unaware of it is because he didnt want publicity or fame later on he denied the carvings because of this....but he did do a little one of susan irvine from northway who was his close friend and my grandmother,

ps....the other carvings are scattered about down there....ones that no-one has took pictures of... u just need to have a good rumage..

pps theres one near bothwell castle

any questions dont hesistate take drop me a wee line

boyle761@btinternet.com"


This website also features a photograph of Tommy working on the carvings.
I am myself an artist, and my family, who I am close to, are unaware of many pieces of art I have done. Also, when you consider Tommy Hawkins was so secretive, I would not think stories from his relatives would be reliable.

The carving of Livingstone can be located as follows:

Facing the rock face from the river, the livingstone carving is situated to the left of the first carving depicting the entombment. It is not right beside the entombment, but about halfway along the vertical face of Blantyre Craig. above the carving are many climbing pitons. It is situated at about head height, and is a carving in profile of him looking south (left).

Furthest to the right of all the carvings is a rock-face featuring many scribbled carvings of initials done by others. There is also a profile carving of what looks like a policeman there, but it is so crude I do not believe Tommy Hawkins did it.

I will be going back during the day sometime to try and find all the carvings. I have found over 12 carvings in East Kilbride & Greenhall, including cup & ring marks so if my keen artistic eye is as good as I think it is, I will try to find all of them this year and report back on secret Scotland with photos. If any of you can help guide me, I will try my best. It seems the mystery of what, and how many carvings exist is annoying a few people.

Having visited the site it seems there is little room between the water and Blantyre Craig. It will take some amount of investigation before any possible tunnels are found.

Quoted from Calaterium

Having visited the site it seems there is little room between the water and Blantyre Craig. It will take some amount of investigation before any possible tunnels are found.

I remember clambering about there one day and thinking wtf am I doing? If I'd slipped and fallen into the Clyde I'd have droont. Be very careful.

I've beeen digging deeply in my old files and found the pics I took way back in April 05' but first here is one of the high water mark near the castle discussed earlier in the thread. I can't remember if its my photo or Apollo's.

Yes the 'big flood' of the Clyde. There are other things down there to, like carved hollows in the cliffside for placing religious icons, and other stuff. The flora of Bothwell Castle woodland is also magnificant, and was celebrated during the 18th-19th centuries.

When the carvings at Blantyre Craig were first carved they were quite detailed. You have probably seen the black & white photo on the secret Scotland Wiki.

Yes, one must always be careful in such places, especially if the person is unnacustomed to such terrains. I have been rambling about in far worse places for years, so I am quite sure footed. I forget these days just how easy it can be to take the wrong step. I always have thought that when you do it constantly every footstep is a complex calculation of balance, angle, grip, etc... Some people may know what I mean. With a depth of water as that part of the Clyde, I get creeped big time. I hate deep dark water.

Has anybody seen the other carvings other than those of Christ? I have seen the Livingstone carving, and I know there is apparently one of a wee girl (see above postings) who Tommy Hawkins knew. Apart from these I am assured there are others, but the people who have seen them have not done so in years.

Although I wouldn't class the carving access as dangerous - apart from one narrow section I would acknowledge as being an "edge" - the main thing the short access route demands is reasonable fitness and a bit of mountain goat gene.

That said, even an apparently low risk location can have serious consequences, and I make no apologies for posting the following link to a tribute which summarises the loss of someone I had been acquainted with, and was lost in tragic circumstances while pursuing a hobby which gave him great pleasure:

Sad news about Billy Twigger « The Isle of Bute Blog

That's a terrible loss, no apologies indeed, its a wake up call many people need.

Anybody who does dangerous tasks regularly can become used to them to the point of becoming blind to the apparent danger. You may start off by walking say 10 feet away from a precipice, and before you know it two years down the line you regularly traverse precipices within 2 feet of the drop without batting an eyelid. Ground could always collapse, you could always miss the odd gap. One moment of lost attention can equal death.
   Having said that, I would say the slope down to the carvings is relatively easy and staying away from the deep water is common sense unless you can swim. As for the priory site the situation changes. When it comes to completely sheer drops I generally can't go near them, without climbing gear, and a back-up line. Some of my archive photos have required that, so that was a bit arduous.

I would generally say that the most innaccessible areas often hide the greatest wonders. If you find James Brown's Flickr Site which I posted the link for in this thread you will see what I mean.

The earlier post and pic of the high level mark has reminded of a couple of items relating to the spot.

The area we see today is quite different to that which may have been seen only a few decades ago.

The first point would be establish the date of the collapse of the Blantyre Priory bing.

I think this was the recognised name (but happy to be corrected) of a bing related to the nearby pit, but which has been cleared, leaving no evidence of its existence. This appears to have been a significant bing, (were there any that were not? ), but all the more so for its collapse, which appears to have occurred in the early 1960s - possibly even a little earlier - and said to have significantly changed the appearance of the river in the area of the priory and castle.

This would appear to be true of the castle (which would have been on the opposite bank), as there was a set of stone steps set to the right of the carving which carries the 1782 Clyde level mark shown in the photograph above. Not only has the stone stairway been wiped out of existence, so has the stone base that it led to.

The second point may relate to any tunnels that may have existed prior to the existence of the bing, its collapse, and subsequent clearance.

The creation, and later collapse, of the bing could have destroyed any ancient tunnel in the adjacent ground, and the the clearance of the collapsed bing, which has clearly changed the recent (in terms of decades) appearance of the area, could have resulted in the obscuration of any evidence that may have remained, making examination today meaningless.

Although I don't have the newspaper, I do have the diary records of someone interested in the area at the, and this refers both to the collapse of the bing, and its clearance, which featured in the newspaper. Unfortunately, it was written retrospectively, hence dates could not be fixed.

There are also some notes regarding discussions with the castle custodian at the time (1950s - 1960s), and while there is mention of some (proven) subjects which still remain secret or hidden in the area, there is no mention of a tunnel in these notes, and I know the discussions would have been fairly long - this is why I haven't really joined in the tunnel debate, being predisposed to the negative, but happy to watch.

I can guarantee that the collapse of the bing had little or no impact on the immediate area surrounding the priory site, although the river was affected for a while. The damage really all happened south of the site on the bend at that point. I beleive the platform & stairs you speak of were those down to the old boathouse and landing quay. which is depicted in many old engravings and paintings/drawings of the Castle. As that was a popular spot to view it from.

North of the carving not very much damage was done. Unless the possible tunnel was in a completely different area to the one suspected, this collapse would have had little effect on the site. Sure, the river was flooded with debris which washed considerably downstream, but this took time and went bit by bit.

It would be interesting to know more about these proven yet secret facts you are aware of. As far as I am aware, the castle worker in the 1950's was very reluctant to tell anyone about the tunnel (if it exists), as he had some involvment with it. Or so rumour says. Apparently the caretaker at that time was one of the youths who knew of the tunnel in the 30's but did not tell of it so as to keep it accessible. This could all well be lies though.

Personal private items like diaries, and papers kept by families are always one of a kind and not accessible to people like myself. If you would like to provide some info of the other areas, then please do.