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Apollo
January 14, 2010, 10:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Monday January 18 2009

19:30
          
The Buckfast Code (Scientific Documentary)

Kenneth MacDonald investigates whether Buckfast Tonic Wine can really be blamed for crime and antisocial behaviour. He enlists top scientists in the search for evidence about the drink's effects and uncovers new and surprising evidence. He hears allegations of a plot against the drink and looks into the role of a monastic order while trying to crack the Buckfast Code.

(Mmmm... Here's a novel thought: quadruple the retail price of Buckfast Tonic Wine, and then tour the streets after the change has rippled through the youth community, and see what label is on the bottles they are holding. The monks can go on their merry way in peace, and instead of tackling the real problem, those who were formerly blaming Buckfast for crime and antisocial behaviour will have a new target to chase).
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JadeFalcon
January 17, 2010, 8:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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A few years back the drinks that seemed to get the blame for rowdy behaviour were the various weird coloured concotions like MD 20/20 and Aftershock.  I once tried Aftershock and decided I'd rather do what the old Soviet Navy conscripts were doing and drinking, and that was torpedo fuel.
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Apollo
January 19, 2010, 10:45am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The Buckie programme provided a surprise of sorts, and some interesting responses, so rather than waffle, I thought I might just summarise it by a diagram.

It may be somewhat over-simplified, but I think it captures the general idea of a product that apparently contains the caffeine content of 8 cans of Coke, the Buckfast rep's steadily spin-filled responses, and the details of the monk's charitable status - and the rather complex and intriguing business model behind the charity front.

Remarkably, Buckie does not appear listed on the following web site: Death By Caffeine- UK and Europe

Perhaps someone should send then an email

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jmb
January 19, 2010, 1:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I wonder if they have removed any references to Buckfast in the new series of Rab C Nesbitt?  I would be rather unfortunate timing after last night's programme!

MB
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Apollo
January 19, 2010, 8:10pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Indeed, it's a real nuisance, as I don't have a shell suit and value my integrity, I can't be seen buying it from an offy, and can't "hide" by using a self-service checkout in a supermarket.

First:

Next:

Then:
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greenock
January 20, 2010, 10:40am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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No ones mentioned Four Crown. A staple for Greenocks Rammy rousers for many years.
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WANLOCK
January 20, 2010, 1:36pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Any one remember Carlsberg Special Brew, supposed at that time strongest beer/lager on sale. Circa 1960's
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Apollo
January 22, 2010, 2:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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There is also a written BBC article to accompany the television programme:

BBC News - Buckfast 'in 5,000 crime reports'

It's easy to poke one cause and lay the blame at its door, and I've had a gentle prod myself in the diagram above, but as the subsequent posts here have highlight, if it's not Buckfast, it's LD, or Lannie, or something else eg cider, alcopops, or whatever.

While it's easy to point a finger at the chap that fronted for Buckfast and say "He's not doing anything", it should be equally clear that simply targeting the current port of call for these drinkers is merely going to move the goalposts somewhere else. Again, as noted above, it was once the super-brews with the high alcohol content that got the blame.

What would probably be more useful would be to take note of the continuing glass danger from all the bottles, not just Buckie bottles.

We already think it is a good idea to replace glass glasses with plastic "glasses" at events, so why not do the same for bottled alcoholic drinks?

After all, soft drinks are largely packaged that way now. And, milk bottles are a thing of the past too.

Any wine buffs that want their  tipple ion glass can pay a £100 deposit, refundable on return of the bottle.

I think we ignore obvious things, and centre on items where we can blame "someone".

Dealing with glass bottles has no real target, it affects all producers.

Pointing at Buckfast (or any one of the others listed) means someone can stand up, and proudly say "I fixed them!" and claim credit - for a while at least.
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Apollo
February 1, 2010, 12:33pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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While I don't think talk of a Buckfast ban is productive - it's merely the local MPs and politicians tool for making it looks as if the are "doing something" - I have to say that I am less than impressed by the response from the the monks.

Forgive my simplicity, but aren't monks supposed to be some sort of religiously oriented do-gooders with the welfare of others as one of their concerns, and a desire to stay away from society and temptation, among other things.

Yet here we have an order that is singularly uncaring about its effect on the world outside its walls, and apparently only interested in maintaining its means of making a fast buck(fast) through something that is considered a vice - alcohol, and if we include the caffeine aspect, drugs.

BBC News - Monks reject Buckfast wine link to crime in Scotland

Their logic, which was first spouted by their representative, is also a sham, and a classic example of "bad science" as they are committing the worst sin of misusing statistics, and twisting the numbers to suit their own argument. Specifically:
Quoted Text
But the monks have issued a statement defending the wine, which its distributors say has just 0.5% of Scotland's alcohol market.

It said: "What is clear is that there are serious, social problems in some parts of Scotland and that in some of these parts there are people who abuse alcoholic drinks, including Buckfast Tonic Wine.

"Deplorable as these are, it is hard to see how one product with only a small percentage of the market can be held responsible for all the social ills of such an area.

"This seems a rather rapid leap of logic. Has anyone considered that the misuse of this wine by some could be seen as a symptom rather than a cause of such problems?"


They seem to think that because they only have "just 0.5% of Scotland's alcohol market" this somehow means that the number is trivial, and conveniently forget, or ignore, that that 0.5% couldrepresent almost 100% of:
Quoted Text
Buckfast Tonic Wine was mentioned in 5,638 crime reports from 2006 to 2009, Strathclyde Police said.

One in 10 of those offences were violent and the bottle was used as a weapon 114 times in that period.

Now, I am not claiming or suggesting it does, but merely applying the same "bad science" as the monks.

The point I am making is merely one of disappointment that monks, who I understand I am supposed to offer some sort of automatic respect to, would respond in the way this order has when informed of problem which they may, and I only go so far as as to say may play a part in.

I would even endorse their question "Has anyone considered that the misuse of this wine by some could be seen as a symptom rather than a cause of such problems?", but deplore their apparent denial of involvement or contribution to that symptom.
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jmb
February 1, 2010, 1:10pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I have my suspicions that the rest of the alcohol trade are trying to divert attention from themselves. Would they be as keen to ban or restrict sales if it was made by an abbey in Scotland and certainly not if it was manufactured by one of the big brewers or distillers.

It seems analogous to the heroin makers calling for a ban on one brand of glue because that brand was mentioned by 0.1% of those questioned by the police.

MB
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Apollo
February 7, 2010, 6:45pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Don't know about the alcohol trade, but Scottish Labour have certainly seen a chance for some blatant electioneering...

Scottish Labour health spokeswoman Jackie Baillie said: "I believe the risks involved in consuming caffeinated alcohol are so great that the Scottish government must take action.

BBC News - Call to cut caffeine in alcohol

Unless, of course, they can provide details of their campaign on this issue - prior to the TV programme we have considered above.

I'm not going to waste any of my time looking for it though.

The Buckfast people are not going to contribute anything helpful, and merely reinforce their intransigent stance:

The distributor's spokesman, Jim Wilson, accused Labour of "scaremongering".

Strangely, there does actually appear to be a couple of voices to be heard that are making some sense (unless I have not realised I am drunk while I read this ):
Quoted Text
Health Secretary Nicola Sturgeon, said: "This is a smokescreen to hide a blatant disregard for parliament, which is the proper place to debate the issues around the Alcohol Bill - not a hand-picked talking shop designed to delay and distract. Obsessing about Buckfast, which accounts for 0.5% of alcohol sold in Scotland, ignores the elephant in the room, which is the excessive consumption of cheap alcohol that's fuelling health and social problems and costing Scotland billions every year."

Lib Dem justice spokesman Robert Brown said: "We need to look at ways to change Scotland's drinking culture effectively. More understanding is needed about why young people start drinking- whether Buckfast, beer or alcopops- in the first place. Simply banning one or the other will not do the trick."
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Apollo
November 24, 2010, 1:49am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Here and interesting ruling from the US:

US bans sale of alcoholic drinks with caffeine kick - health - 23 November 2010 - New Scientist

What I found notable was the comment from the UK, in the last line:
Quoted Text
"There is currently no evidence to indicate a need for a review," a spokesman for the UK Food Standards Agency told New Scientist.

Unless my memory is getting even worse, I seem to recall we had a documentary which looked at this very subject not all that long ago, and the result showed that the effects of caffeine in Buckfast (yes, I know this specific article does not mention our 'national' drink) were far from negligible - and not really particularly well represented by someone from officialdom stating that the was "currently no evidence to indicate a need for a review".

Unless, they had perhaps borrowed a telescope once reputed to have belonged to a certain Mr H Nelson
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WM
November 24, 2010, 8:37am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Of course the other favourite of neds is red bull and vodka - the same explosive mixture of caffeine and alcohol.
What really amused me a few years ago when working in Spain for a large sporting event (and I emphasise working, I would not be seen dead at a football match unless I was well paid for it) was Scottish football supporters in the streets with their bottles of Bucky, which they must have brought with them on the plane, when they could have bought very good quality wine there for about quarter of the price, or much more "bang per buck" for the same money.
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Apollo
December 13, 2010, 11:24am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Good old Buckfast and Scotland get an honourable mention in this story about the death of another caffeine enhanced alcoholic drink:

BBC News - US students mourn alcohol and caffeine drink Four Loko
Quoted Text
Drinking a few cans of Four Loko in quick succession different is very different to someone drinking a bottle of wine over dinner, followed by coffee, he argues.

"In one can you have the equivalent of almost a bottle of wine and a couple of cups of coffee. That's a lot of alcohol and caffeine all at once. And young people tend to drink these things quickly."

Concerns over the drinks are not confined to the United States. The caffeinated wine Buckfast has been linked to youth crime in Scotland. Mexico and Australia are both considering regulating the sale of the drinks on health grounds.


The maker of the offending drink sees nothing wrong:
Quoted Text

"If it were unsafe, popular drinks like rum and colas or Irish coffees that have been consumed safely and responsibly for years would face the same scrutiny that our products have recently faced”

Phusion Projects, Makers of Four Loko

Far be it from me to throw their own statement back in their faces, but unless there is something wrong with my brain (or if I had perhaps had drunk four cans of Four Loko at once), but sipping "popular drinks like rum and colas or Irish coffees that have been consumed safely and responsibly for years" is somewhat different from pouring four cans of a caffeine enhanced beverage down one's throat as quickly as possible with the aim of enjoying a blackout is something quite different, and just might why it was ordered off the shelves.

Maybe the monks of Buckfast should have an American export sales manager working in the US, and touring the universities with one of those little 'free sample' tents.

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jmb
December 13, 2010, 11:34am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The Co-op is under fire today for selling packs of four cans of their own brand medium strength lager for 79p.  

MB
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Apollo
December 13, 2010, 12:17pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Waste of time on the part of whichever idiot decided to make it an issue, and play their part in a marketing ploy to get free advertising by the Co.

I've never seen anything like that on the shelves in out local branches, despite the ads - and I live in the 'depressed and drink-sodden' east end of Glasgow, where such offers should be piled high and shifted fast,

It may be on their list, but I suspect only to draw people in.

The Co, as I have mentioned elsewhere, is the most expensive supermarket operating here, yet it lies a stone's throw from Tesco, and minutes from Asda, and even Morrison's.

Whatever else it is doing, it is not taking part in a price war to try and undercut or compete with any of its neighbours.

I walk around the Co nowaday, and generally walk out without buying anything after comparing the prices.

Their 'normal' canned alcohol, beers, lagers, and ciders, are on a par with the others, being no less than £4 for four can, and often more - again probably making their offer the most expensive.

Our local store has just a had a makeover, reorganising the whole interior (they turned everything 90°) and installing new fitting and fridges.

It's still a desert though, compared to the crowds inside Tesco, Asda, and Morrison's.

They don't even try on pricing. You will recognise the small plastic packs of four small cakes such as individual pineapple tarts. These sell at between £1 and £1.15 elsewhere, and used to be the same at the Co. Then they changed supplied, and these same little cakes are £1.90 in the Co.

That's just chosen as a fairly standard item seen in all the shops - the same is true of veg. Say ordinary white potatoes. 2.5 kg bags go for 99 p to £1,28 elsewhere, the Co is always £1.35 and sometime slips in 1.5 kg bags instead of 2.5 kg, just in case some folk are trying to do their comparison sums in their heads

Anyway, I digress terribly, but I just wanted to add real examples because I used to use the Co-op in preference to the others, but I just can't afford to do it if I am also expected to pay for the privilege of showing my 'loyalty'.
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Apollo
December 13, 2010, 6:17pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I was surprised to be 'corrected', and find cans of the Co's own medium strength lager on the shelves, but at 65 p.

There was no stampede beating a path to it, despite it being poor old Shettleston, and I might have given it a try (a 4-pack was even cheaper per can) bar the fact that I'm looking for hot drinks when at home, to help keep the icicles off the end of the nose!

I personally think this price-griping by the sanctimonious is either little more than posturing - of the "Shame on you for not supporting us (we are doing something even if it is patently pointless" variety - or even worse, of the folk who call for and set such regulations (minimum pricing per unit of alcohol) happy to have their own respectable class populated by discreet alcoholics, while seeing to it that those of the social class below theirs is prevented from indulging in the same, because they do not do it discreetly.

The price will never stop an addict, as we see from smoking and drugs, but it does ensure someone, somewhere along the chain of supply nets a nice little fortune for themselves.

I might also add that a quick spy of Tesco's beer and lager shelves showed cheaper lager to be had, albeit 2% rather than 4%, and a look in the little grocer's on the road between the two big shops showed it had big brand name lager on offer for around 75 p per can for the cheapest I could spot without staring in the window as if I was gasping for a drink
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Apollo
December 13, 2010, 8:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Variety is the spice of life

Forgot to add to the above, while I was idling at the checkout in Tesco this evening, I spotted a sign warning that individual cans of alcoholic drinks would no longer be sold singly after December 17 - sales would then only be by 4-pack or multipack.
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jmb
December 13, 2010, 9:18pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Apollo
Variety is the spice of life

Forgot to add to the above, while I was idling at the checkout in Tesco this evening, I spotted a sign warning that individual cans of alcoholic drinks would no longer be sold singly after December 17 - sales would then only be by 4-pack or multipack.


Crafty way for them to boost sales.

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Apollo
December 15, 2010, 12:37am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Interesting...
Quoted Text
Off licences in Dundee are to begin tagging bottles of alcohol so the buyer can be traced if they are later passed on to under-age drinkers.

Tayside Police said it was difficult for stores to know if legally-bought alcohol was being given to youngsters.

Under the scheme, off licences in Stobswell have been given a unique code to mark bottles so they can be traced to a specific store.

Officers can then check CCTV to see who bought the alcohol.

BBC News - Dundee police to track off-licence sales
There are one or two spots where I have been known to take a minor detour, just to avoid passing too close to an offy, since I've been accosted more than once by ickle-kiddies with a handful of cash and yearning for a bottle or two - and it seems a refusal often offends.

More recently though, it has been teenage girls looking to have cigarettes bought for them - and I just think that's sad (birds with ashtray breath, enough to make you )
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WM
December 15, 2010, 9:25am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Apollo

The price will never stop an addict, as we see from smoking and drugs, but it does ensure someone, somewhere along the chain of supply nets a nice little fortune for themselves.


I agree with that, and that is the reason why I am against minimum pricing. The alcoholic will pay the higher price, while his children as a result go hungry and worse clothed. Or like drug addicts, they may turn to crime to support their addiction. And it only hits the poor, rich alcoholics can carry on merrily drinking themselves to death without worrying about the cost, especially since they are more likely to indulge in the most expensive brands unnaffected by minimum pricing anyway. Meanwhile the supermarkets and off-licences rub their hands with glee at the thought of more profits for the same sales. I is policy made with the best of intentions, but, not properly thought through.
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Apollo
December 28, 2010, 12:55pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The tagging initiative I mentioned earlier seem to have been latched on to as another 'easy fix' (like price) by those who like to occupy the high moral ground, and be seen to be 'doing something' even if it is patently all but worthless.

I can see the point of bottle-tagging as having value when used as part of a targetted campaign, when it is introduced to an area for a limited time, so the bottles are relatively rare.

But, according to the article, the coding is unique to the off-sales, not the bottle, so once an area is saturated with tagged bottles, how can their discovery be any use?

Unless the system works in a way that is being kept secret, these people are sadly misguided.

To be any use, bottles would have to be tagged uniquely, and as the system relies on CCTV to identify the purchaser, the video record would have to carry details of the individual bottle to prove that the alleged purchaser bought a given bottle on that time and date, and had not merely come into possession of a bottle that had, at some time, been sold from a given off-sales during a period when it was selling a bottles with carried its unique tag.

HELLOOOOO - knock knock - is there anyone in there? And do they have two brain cells to knock together and think their ideas past the publicity and back slapping stage?

If the bottle are uniquely tagged, and are somehow linked to the video record (sale. time, date, face), why not say so in a blaze of publicity? It would act as a deterrent to all but those already in an alcoholic haze.

BBC News - Call to 'tag' bottles of alcohol in Scotland
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jmb
December 28, 2010, 1:18pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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It does look a bit like a stunt for the press to make it look as if something is being done.

It is hard to imagine the police trawling through many days of CCTV footage.  Even if they find someone underage drinking with a person old to buy the booze then I can't see a CCTV image of the the older person buying booze is going to stand up in court or at least it should not if there is any justice.  

Perhaps if lots of underage drinkers are found with booze from the same source then that supplier could be investigated though it is quite likely that a lot will be coming from the big supermarkets anyway.

MB
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Apollo
January 18, 2011, 11:17am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Is there an unwritten rule that the English and Welsh will do what the Scottish don't - just to be contrary?

After Scotland sent the minimum alcohol pricing lot packing, and told them their idea was daft, the others are set to implement the idea, BUT with the experts telling them the move will have "no effect at all on the health of this nation".
Quoted Text
Plans for a minimum price for alcohol in England and Wales are to be announced by ministers.

Shops and bars will be prevented from selling drinks for less than the tax they pay on them.

The minimum pricing would work out at 38p for a can of weak lager and £10.71 for a litre bottle of vodka.

Prof Ian Gilmore, of the Royal College of Physicians, said in practice it was a "small step" with "no effect at all on the health of this nation".

Last September, the Scottish Parliament rejected plans for a minimum price per unit of alcohol of 45p, after opposition MSPs said the move would penalise responsible drinkers and could be illegal under European competition law.

Ministers in Northern Ireland have called for controls to prevent the cheap sale of alcohol.

The Home Office said the move for England and Wales was designed to address the issue of binge drinking, which has been linked to chronic health problems and social disorder.

The government is planning to ban the sale of alcohol below "cost price", which is defined as the tax drinkers pay - duty plus VAT.

BBC News - Minimum alcohol price levels planned by coalition
It all seems daft to me, and utterly pointless, and is nothing more than an unnecessary gimmick.

If there was any desire to limit the consumption of alcohol through the blunt tool of punitive pricing, then we don't need yet another of bureaucratic control to staff and manage.

As we have seen in the example of fuel duty, all they have to do is raise the level of alcohol duty on wines, spirits and beers, something that could be done at a stroke during any budget, and without all the fuss and jabbering that has gone on over this minimum pricing rabble.

I reckon they - and I won't use the word 'government' here - have been looking across the water and the land to the Soviet model, where the leaders kept the population happy and stupefied with copious quantities of cheap, state funded vodka
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jmb
January 18, 2011, 1:22pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Apollo
Is there an unwritten rule that the English and Welsh will do what the Scottish don't - just to be contrary?


I thought it was the other way around?

I dread to think what Wee Eck might change if he ever gets chance (hopefully not).

MB

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Apollo
January 19, 2011, 9:46pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Does it matter what mechanism raised the price of alcohol?

As long as it is cheaper abroad, then smuggling is lucrative - regardless of the material being smuggled.

Booze cruises? Don't they only work if the government encourages them by allowing Duty Free?

As we have just seen (current BBC documentary with reporter attacked in Glasgoe Barras, and from reports from Ayr Market), the tobacco smuggling operation is huge, organised and violent. It's better than alcohol because the lack of bottle means it's lighter and easier to handle - like drugs.

There's also a little reported market in petrol and diesel smuggling - and as the tax keeps being piles on fuel, is this to keep it hush-hush (and it's a major embarrassment being kept quiet), or is it something that has not been exploited by organised smuggling rings yet, as the material is bulky and easy to detect.

But, as an engineer - and you don't have to be that smart - I can say that it would be easy, if perhaps needing something reasonably well built, to hide such a trade, and as the tax rises, the motivation grows. So far, all the fuel smuggling rigs I've seen have been a joke, and would be found in a matter of minutes by any authorities equipped to find such things.

As for the nation's boozy past

The 'beer' was little more than fermented water of very low alcoholic content, enough only to kill the nasty bacteria and make it safe to drink, and was even consumed by children.

Your bladder and kidneys would have retired before you drank enough of that particular brew to get drunk, and the guys would still have to go to local pub, inn, or tavern to get legless, even in those days.
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Apollo
January 25, 2011, 1:52am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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There must be something wrong me...

I thought the idea of this minimum pricing brainwave was to reduce the consumption of alcohol.



Now I am being told that because there is so much duty on booze - AND DRINKERS ARE BUYING LESS - the duty is too high and now there is a...

Call to abandon alcohol duty rise - Yahoo! News UK

Apparently 'The Industry' is crying because pubs have borne the brunt of this - my heart bleeds, I've never met or chatted to a poor publican (unless they were also useless).

In this period of adversity, in the poor east end of Glasgow I've noticed pubs that were closed in past years being unsealed and re-opened, and in what looks like a response, a number of existing boozers have had such extensive refits and tart-ups that they've closed for a few weeks.

And would you believe it? They're STILL whining about the smoking ban!

When you are in business and the market changes you can do one of two things: sit in the corner hugging a blanket and sucking your thumb and hope it changes, or adapt and survive. In either case, you'll probably get what you deserve.

More importantly, the new figures allegedly revealed that falling beer sales are costing the Treasury £257 million a year in lost taxes.

Well, there's an important lesson for one large group of the UK population.

Even if all that motorists were to do, as a whole, was to stop making small journeys that they could walk in a few minutes (and use the most fuel per mile, or part thereof), it would soon impact the Treasury, and they could then argue less duty = more sales.

And some of the journeys I see are ridiculous. I can see our local shops along the road (not even 5 minutes to walk casually), yet I see the same neighbours waddle into their cars for the morning paper and return about two minutes later. Then there's something for lunch, and even another run in the evening for some milk or suchlike if they maybe ran out during the day.



I was once setting up a PC - seven houses along the road from home - and when I discovered a dead cable and said I would just get a new one, heard my neighbour say "Hold on a moment, I'll get my keys and run you along". He was genuinely flabbergasted when I refused and said I would walk.

But then we'd get the Green Loonies jumping up and down again, because they don't want anybody to drive anyway, and want more duty charged yada yada yada etc etc.

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Apollo
January 27, 2011, 1:34am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The tagging scheme is underway, kicking off in Dundee:

BBC - Newsbeat - Scottish alcohol tagging scheme goes live

It would almost be amusing, but the kids are already laughing at it, and indicating that they will get around it simply by moving around.
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jmb
January 27, 2011, 9:15am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Or as this article this morning says, just use existing laws against drunks (I presume there are similar laws in Scotland).

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Apollo
February 2, 2011, 4:46am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Forewarned is Forearmed
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Aren't existing laws being used against drunks?

They seem to be in any of the programmes that now show cameras following the police around the country, either those that show them filling vans with drunks every night, or the road programmes that have collecting drink-drivers. The problem seems to be that they run out of cells, not that they are not using existing law.

Although the response it primarily based on pricing in England, the analysis and comment would seem nonetheless to apply to the UK.

Small beer: The UK's new booze price rules won't work - health - 01 February 2011 - New Scientist

I still don't get it though, as one lot is crying into their beer about high prices causing falling sales and falling Treasury takes - so the price must be biting, while another lot are dancing around and saying that the price has to be more than doubled before it will have an effect.

They can't all be right - or should that be wrong
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