I'll see you in hell.........some other time! Rumour
Posts: 65
Just reading the page on the ROF factory, the bit about the safety record is pretty far from the truth. Over the years there have been about 15 people killed there, including one explosion in June 1960 which killed 6 workers. The last death was in the 90's. It amazing how it has all been hushed up over the years.
Good evening Specopscaptain & Everyone, Not sure where to start really.Greenock supplied a fair few of the workforce as did Paisey & Glasgow.My own personal view is based on the very difficult discipline of epidemiology & its related subject of statistics added to the subject of cluster illness related medicine.Trafalgar first born in my family is at Yoonie studying the sciences (Or so she tells me).Over the past few years I have been interested in reading about the site and its potential for development etc.Many of the accounts of the chemicals used in there(Listed on line) I put to first born.As much as she prefers talking about Rap/R&B(Not Dr Feelgood BTW) she illustrated the poor history of these elements in relation to health.The Captain offers some numbers in relation to deaths.Can any agency or anyone supply information in relation to Cancer or related deaths for this establishment.Brilliant post Specopscaptain.One point to any takers!Scottish Industrial Geography versus epidemiological evidence versus anecdotal evidence...goodness me.Any takers.
Try the BAG site for past and current info. It has a history section.
Maybe "first born" can favour and enlighten us - are the BAG folk NIMBYs, or will anyone moving onto the site turn into mutants?
I'm mildly curious because I always start to worry when I read the site, on the one hand they seem to provide reliable evidence (which I haven't verified), but then weaken their own case by rubbishing the council etc, rather than using their info to make reasoned arguments and debate.
I'm probably wrong, and have just read the wrong bits
Hi Apollo & Everyone, I understand that the Bishopton residents are by and large against the Re-Development proposals.It is well documented that the site contains a list of Chemical elements which to say the least are a source for concern. Many of the elements are known to be carcinogens and quite rightly Specopscaptain points out that the health and safety record is open to question. This vast site by its nature produced many by-products during a time where the legislation was perhaps not as robust as it is now. The point that I am making is that in my opinion the site will never be made 100% safe.First born pointed out the potential risks of exposure to heavy matals and other elements contained on the lists submitted to the residents of the area.As I said the difficulty is proving whether a particular environmental problem is to blame for an increase in the incidence of a particular illness.Have a look at the ongoing disputes over the prevelance of Cancers amongst workers at a nearby computer parts plant.
Hi, I worked at Bishopton from 1979 to 1988 and remember a few people killed none of which were relating to explosive mishaps. There were numerous accidents, some major some minor, but considering the scale and nature of the processes the safety record was good. The accident in the 90's was a press explosion which caused the building to collapse on the control room and ended with BAE going to court.The Glasgow herald has details. If you look back to the late 30's,40's and 50's there were a number of fatalities, I believe some are buried at the cemetery on the way to Formakin house and others in Greenock. Some accidents did make the press. When BAE took over in 1984 the HSA arrived mob handed on the first day as they had been denied access by the MOD. The first thing they did was to close the Ammuntion Breakdown section because the toluene levels were too high (probably why quite a few people had ginger fringed hair from liver disorders)- it never re-opened. Continually handling explosives built up a tollerance to Nitroglycerine so that the effects of "bang head or "NG head" were only really noticed after two weeks holiday when the first day back was agony. Never have figured out if this is why I've had blood pressure problems since my twenties. There will be no one alive that knows what was used/spilt/buried/burned where over the history of the site and I doubt that it was ever documented in the past. From my nine years there the list would be large enough. Personally I would never buy a house there as sixty years of manufacture on that scale, and knowing the chemicals involved, the place is fit for only one purpose.....an Ordnance factory.
Part of my job in 1983 was to verify the asset register in preparation for BAE's takeover which involved checking equipment in every building. Armed with a map and a small team of people this took many weekends due to the number of buildings- all on overtime as we could not be released from our day jobs. The map was not very good as we found several buildings which were not listed and hidden in the trees, some had been abandoned with all the equipment in place. We opened a bricked up air raid shelter to find it piled high with boxes full of.......demob shoes, black with white spats! The factory was a self contained town with two fire engines, two ambulances, Doctor & Dental surgery,Photographic dept and even a mortuary building , in fact everything a small town would need. The buildings were numbered in a random manner so that the process flow could not be determined from them, therefore building 219/Q was no where near 219/R. The factory was actually several factories with double of every process so that in the event of enemy action or serious mishap production would not be affected. Many buildings and magazines had one stud wall covered in chicken wire with a doped canvas cover so that in the event of explosion the wall would release the pressure and the building could be re used within days. A large number of buildings were either empty or held in reserve, some were abandoned like the WW2 Ball powder factory on the western edge. The RCAHMS photographs show some familure places but the removal of trees makes some parts confusing
Must say that I enjoyed working there, every day was exciting and there were plenty of places to explore and skive off to. When time allows I will annotate a map of the factory as a record.
Does anyone have any information on cancer deaths relating to ex workers of rof bishopton?
Does anyone know if the workers wore asbestos lined overalls, or what the levels of asbestos were? Was there any there? I'm sure there was as it was a bomb factory.
Great detail on real life in the factory Al90, and the latter years.
The reference to nitroglycerine and the health effect of saturation due to exposure are well-known, and the World War I workers would sneak material out of the factories where the worked when the were on what passed fro holidays in those days, so they could maintain their exposure and avoid the headaches. See Devil's Porridge for references.
Re asbestos, I tend to doubt that there will be anything other than what might now be described as the usual contamination as a result of building processes of the time which used asbestos, and would lead to the later hazards of fibre release in demolition. The Bishopton Action Group web site listed above may have documentation relating to that process, but I don't recall tripping over any specific asbestos references.
It's something that took a long time to sink in, and as recently as the 1990s, I used to visit a major government sponsored national technical facility on the outskirts of London which had a building - the blue building as I recall - which was literally closed down and sealed the day it was due to be occupied (and never was) because asbestos had been used in the construction, and it stayed sealed and unused until it was demolished a few years ago.
As noted above, the hazards on the site refer to the chemical processes involved, rather than any processes which involved the need for the heat resistance of asbestos based overalls. There was, of course, much cooking involved in the production, but temperatures which would have demanded asbestos would have been avoided - for fairly obvious reasons. This doesn't preclude its early, or even later use, as insulation in the process equipment in use on the site. The only become hazardous if tampered with though, viz maintenance/repair - if done by amateurs, or similarly during demolition.
There would be little if any call for asbestos overalls at the Bishopton facility, which is wrongly referred to as a "bomb factory", which it was not, as it was primarily involved the in the production of cordite, which is used as a propellant, for shells and bullets, valued for its smokeless operation - doesn't give away the gun position.
I have not heard of any health related study on Ex.Bishopton employees. The overalls we used were Proban fireproof ones which are flame resistant cotton. The only asbestos I came across was brown and was lagging on steam pipes. No process buildings had asbestos as part of the structure as even asbestos could not cope with the temperature and rapid pressure changes in a propellant fire or explosion. To use asbestos would be entirely pointless. No bombs as such were ever made at Bishopton as it was a Propellant and explosives factory, the main filling factories were Glascoed( Artillery cases) and Chorley(warheads & projectiles). The only filling done at Bishopton was white phosphorus 120mm shell, 81mm Mortar and No.80 Grenades. Once a month there was a compulsory medical and dental check for the filling unit guys to prevent phosi jaw. In 1979-88 most of the workforce were pretty old then so by now most will have passed on
The temperatures involved in expolosive manufacture were low as they were a chemical reaction with nitric and sulpuric acid in Gun cotton/ nitrocellulose/ Nitroglycerine production and had to be maintained below 37 C,anything higher than this was usually not healthy. The only high heat source was in the early stages of Picrite manufacture which was not hazardous and no asbestos was needed. Picrite dampens the mussle flash by producing large volumes of nitrogen, therby reducing burn temperature and barrel wear. When the factory was closed for the fair, which was alternated between Glasgow, Paisley and Greenock fairs, it was common practice to take a small piece of MNLF propellant to slip under the tongue each day for a minute to prevent "bang head" on the return to work. Under the tongue was the best place as it has the highest number of blood vessels in the body therefore fast delivery to the head. This was naval propellant made without acetone as a solvent and seemingly "tasted better" than the normal solvent propellant. Personally I never went down this road and used the cocodamol tablets provided. In the early days I worked in the Ammuntion breakdown section where we dismantled and steamed out everything with an out of date "best before date" from Mortar bombs , 1000Lb bombs, shells to Bloodhound warheads. this also included barium filled incendiary rounds the contents of which were re used in for Barium meal X-rays. The Toluene content in the steam was to prove a problem. Each day we burned 1 ton of waste in the morning and 1 ton in the afternoon. The burning pans at ammo breakdown are the grey area at the bottom of the Google earth Picture of the factory with the Gun propellant section above, right side is the Combustible charge section with Picrite and white phosphorus filling unit at top right.
Pitty the short sighted idiots in our government moved production to South Africa and the Czech republic and left us defenceless.....or were their palms greased?
I used to do some work in the Compaq factory, and really only came to realise ROF was where it was as a result of passing signs for it on my way there from the motorway.
I really had no idea it was still there and still active - fairly well hidden to a non-local from the east-ish.
Fascinating to learn what was going on a matter of yards away from where I was.
I don't think production was moved to South Africa, isn't it the case that the material is procured now, rather then manufactured?
It's a different world now, and things change. In that order, suggesting we are defenceless because propellant is procured is reasonable.
After all, the material to make that propellant has to be bought in, and in World War I (yes, I know it was a long time ago, it's only for an example) we had no acetone to make the stuff from, and the was a huge "Shell Scandal" when the guns were almost silenced... until someone came up with the idea of getting acetone from wood - which we just happened to have handy locally.
Would we be self-sufficient in propellant manufacture today, or would imported materials be needed to maintain war volume production?
(I don't know the whole process, or the industry, in sufficient detail, so can't hazard a guess, but if one imported component is missing, then that's as effective at shutting things down as having Soth Africa turn off the taps).
More importantly... I'm on the scrounge for any online references or reports about the relatively recent accidents/deaths there - only in general terms of course, just to prove the event occurred. I had a rummage through the BAG site and reports but they are only relevant to BAG's own current agenda regarding the land, so was no help regarding this aspect. Appreciate a note about anything that might be floating around the internet. Local histories seem to be unaware, or have ignored this, it may be too recent for them.
Propellant supply is from Nitrochemie Germany for tank ammunition and SOCHEM of South Africa for Artillery. Switzerland was supplying Grenades etc. until the last Gulf war when they involked their neutrality clause and refused to supply, we then had to go to the Czech republic. The grenades were seemingly as dangerous to the thrower as they were to the enemy.
Don't you love Switzerland, and its programmable neutrality
That's an impressive listing of incidents, and assuming the local history sites for Bishopton have not been revised in the past couple of years, provides a good case of not accepting local history which claims to be complete, or might be mare safely described as not absolute.
Having read the local local tales, it would seem that they largely circulated the same relatively cosy story of the record of the ROF.
I am mildly surprised, and suspect they may have been written independently, by different writers at different time, but from the same source.
It's usually fairly easy for the human eye, ie me, to spot if the same story has been cut & pasted & edited, and although similar info was obtained from different sources, none it waved the "common source" flag.
I'll see you in hell.........some other time! Rumour
Posts: 65
The June 1960 explosion was caused by a failure of the light used to stop the flow of the NG between buildings failed. This meant that it kept flowing until it overflowed and went boom. My Grandfather was one of the foremen killed in the explosion. Ironically it wasnt even his shift.
SPECOCAPTAIN, Sorry to hear that you lost a family member there as it was always in the back of our minds that it could happen to someone we knew.
Usually the accidents were caused by something small which in any other industry would have no consequences. There was a similar incident in the early 80's when the NG was being run from the storage tank to paste mixing, nothing arrived as it was pouring out down the hill- took days to clear up. The safety regime was always really strict and I can remember, as an 18 year old, being puched by a foreman for making a stupid mistake and frankly I deserved it. It was a way of education which is sadly lost these days. In fairness considering the thousands of tons of explosives processed through the years the safety record was probably one of if not the best in the industry.
I've added some more info and pictures, but I can add a lot more if people are interested - could do a process flow, for example, detailing the main buildings with pictures.
I've added a link to a Google Earth map I've made of Bishopton, but it needs to be approved.
Speaking of approving stuff, I've also added pictures for Ardeer and Georgetown, but they need someone to approve them as well - or put them into Photobucket like the Bishopton ones.
I've seen all the additions - the Recent Changes page on the Main Site retains a permanent record, so I always know where to look each day, or go back to later.
It's just a matter of time - I don't know where it goes these days
The GE work is terrific, and I think it deserves more than just the link being approved, to draw attention to it.
Although I use the Google Maps APi, I've never been drawn to the GE toys - (I am interested, but the truth is that my PC just too feeble ).
If you want to make sure anything you do is not missed, just add
[[!ToDo]]
as the last line on the page, and it will be included in my reports.
User input is the idea, I worry about the format and style for the site, and you can't break or destroy a page, as all changes can be rolled back.
Cool, I'll keep adding stuff when I have time, and let you play with it at your leisure
GE is fantastic for things like this - I'm working on similar mapping for Ardeer. If you want wiki-friendly stuff, then I've got some GE screenshots from Bishopton in my Flickr set.
Some already have some better descriptions from info provided by other ex-workers, but the more the better. Sometimes, I had no idea what I was taking a picture of...
Ben, It'll take a while for the descriptions as my memory of twenty years ago is a bit slow, I have already added one under the user ID "Merlin",. The processes used are similar to other propellant manufactures like ICI and Hercules.
Wow - you've added a huge amount of info, thank you very much
I'm working on an interactive map as well - click on a building, and you'll get pictures and a description. Are you okay for me to use your info in this as well? Do you have a perferred alias?
Memory is not too good on the Acid plant and CCC section, it's been 27 years. Many of the acid plant and guncotton buildings were unused and contained old equipment. Your welcome to use the descriptions, no alias or credit is needed, just glad that the last wartime ROF is not being demolished without being recorded. I'll add more when I remember what the bits I'm unsure of did.
I was an apprentice at ROF BIshopton 1962 - 67. There were a number of accidents, including one at a howf, where the story told to me (I don't know if this relates to the 1960 accident) was that, rather than go to a store for spares, a fitter picked up a bit of piping and started grinding it on a standing grinder. There was nitro in the pipe and it exploded killing a number of people.
My brother worked in the cordite burning plant and he told me that his opposite number on the other shift was caught in a blow-back from the furnace and burnt to a crisp.. only the soles of his boots remaining. This would be in about '63-'64. My brother quit soon after and took up a safer job!
Interestingly, in light of the medical slant here, he is now 70 and suffering from an unidentified motor neuron style illnness, which the doctors cannot diagnose nor treat.... might it be to do with chemical exposure..???
There was an interesting programme about the blow-down of a Las Vegas casino last week.
Due to the nature of the job, the team had to use high velocity explosive (19,000 fps as opposed to the more usual 5,000 fps) which has a much higher nitroglycerine content.
The high temperature at Vegas meant the sticks of dynamite were sweating, so the team was covered with the explosive which is easily absorbed through the skin, and due to the long shifts were all suffering headaches due to the exposure.
As they noted, a small tablet containing a minute dose of nitroglycerine is enough to dilate the blood vessels sufficiently to save someone from a heart attack, and they were handling the sweating material for days.
The links given on the Devil's Porridge page used to provide more details of the illnesses that affected the women that worked in the cordite factory, but I had a quick look, and it seems the sites listed have been tarted up and dumbed down, and now carry less factual info
I've got a set of the Georgetown Gazette - the magazine of the WWI Georgetown Filling Factory which was at the southern end of the Bishopton site. That makes several mentions of the effects of the nitroglycerin fumes, and how good they are for the complexion!
I carry some NG at all times in the formof a spray!
Georgetown also had its own station. By the 60s it comprised about 4 wooden bungalows as I recall. was it ever much bigger and why did it warrant its own station?
The filling factory closed in 1919, but it had 10,000 workers at it's peak, with special trains bringing all the workers. Explosives were made elsewhere, but shells were filled there in huge numbers.
I'll add more to the page on the Wiki as soon as I get time...
A gaine is a booster between the mercury fulminate detonator and the TNT explosive - HE shells has to be very stable so they wouldn't go off by accident, so the booster was needed to make sure the detonation worked properly. Tetryl was usually used as the gaine.
Very interesting post, Spoke on the phone to a greenock Auntie who worked at ROF Bishopton in the Fifties,anyway she was "Chatted up" by one of the Guards/Security.Just fine in her words except the perimeter security dogs there were trained by this gent to recognise scents etc such as that of Blood-not that of Animals.The relationship was a non-starter.Notwithstanding other boasts by said gent.The establishment has a fair few stories to tell.One Involving Paisley gilmour st station.Any...takers.Fascinated by the Gaines query its a common surname in the deep south of the USA.A generic brand name as such.Reminds me of the catheter in the medical World which is names as a Scotsman in the US and thge Yankuur in the UK named I undrstand after the two companies which had distribution rights to the products(Identical) in the respective countries.Incidentally back to ROF you will notice that the establishment has sprouted a mast any takers on this given that the place is in a valley.I dont think its cellular.
Very interesting post, Spoke on the phone to a greenock Auntie who worked at ROF Bishopton in the Fifties,anyway she was "Chatted up" by one of the Guards/Security.Just fine in her words except the perimeter security dogs there were trained by this gent to recognise scents etc such as that of Blood-not that of Animals.The relationship was a non-starter.Notwithstanding other boasts by said gent.The establishment has a fair few stories to tell.One Involving Paisley gilmour st station.Any...takers.Fascinated by the Gaines query its a common surname in the deep south of the USA.A generic brand named as such.Reminds me of the catheter in the medical World which is names as a Scotsman in the US and the Yankur in the UK named I understand after the two companies which had distribution rights to the products(Identical) in the respective countries.Incidentally back to ROF you will notice that the establishment has sprouted a mast in the middle near the aztec structure any takers on this given that the place is in a valley.I dont think its cellular.
I've started on the massive job of adding pictures and info to the Bishopton wiki page - NG and NC started so far. Hopefully I haven't made too many mistakes
Just noticed that Google have got new high-res images of Glasgow - you can see the bicycle I had parked outside my house! More relevantly, it also covers half of ROF Bishopton - teasingly, it slices right through the large drum blender, but there's a good aerial view of the small drum blender and lots of other things.
I see what you mean - the new detail is impressive.
I'm surprised. I'm on the list for updates, and the last major upload was back in April or May - at least one that referred to the UK and Scotland in particular.
There have been some others notified in recent weeks, but no-one mentioned anything about the UK - unless they maybe edited existing notes and didn't generate an alert.
Checked the data, and the new imagery generally dates from May 2009, which ties in with what I can see locally, as it includes me.
I even looked to see and confirm that both Google Earth AND Googgle Maps show this detail, as GE generally gets the data push first, then it's pushed through the system to Maps at at some later time - it's the same in both for my area.
I've also thrown up a quick Blog entry and example.
Was about to have a quick flick through... then saw the number of pages, and realised even that will take a little more than five minutes
Never seen Blurb before either, so I've learnt something interesting, which may be of interest to others, so I will be passing the link on to others as an example, as it may be something they want to use as well.
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