Just two points about the latest version of this article.
1) Is HMS NEPTUNE an alternative name for HMNB Clyde? I don't think so; in the 1970s it was used only of the Naval establishment providing "hotel services" (acommodation, stores, personnel facilities) for the Clyde Submarine Base. Other facilities on the site (RN Polaris School, etc) on the site were not part of HMS Neptune, but of the Clyde Submarine Base.
2) Slightly different, but as it's mentioned in this article will deal with it here. Was there a submarine depot ship based at Campbeltown in the war years? Submarines based there were for training purposes, although operational boats did come in at times, certainly from Rothesay.
1. I'm afraid you'll have to take it up with the Royal Navy if you think today's use of the name of HMS Neptune for the shore facility, or stone frigate, also known as HMNB Clyde is incorrect:
Responsibility for the day-to-day management of the functions of HM Naval Base Clyde is vested in Naval Base Commander Clyde (NBC) /Deputy FOSNNI, who is also Commodore HMS Neptune and Authorisee of the Nuclear Site.
If you have a search around the web, or search the RN link given at the foot of the article, you'll find numerous references to Captain HMS Neptune and similar when the RN writes about events relating to the Clyde base, they seem to prefer to refer to HMS something-or-other when making such reports.
2. Coincidentally, according to the RN's summary of the Faslane base:
The Royal Navy has had a connection with Faslane and the Gareloch since the First World War. Indeed, the steam-driven submarine K-13 was lost off Rhu in January 1917. The Faslane site was acquired by the Ministry of War and Transport in 1940 as an alternative site on the Clyde to the heavily bombed Greenock and Port Glasgow locations. During the Second World War the Naval presence in the area intensified, and submarines operating from floating depot ships were based at the Holy Loch, Rothesay and Campbeltown.
It was the arrival of such a depot ship, HMS Adamant and the Third Submarine Squadron, that saw the beginnings of the modern Naval Base. In 1963, the UK's first nuclear powered attack submarine, HMS Dreadnought arrived in Faslane.
Unfortunately, so far, other than this, I can come up with no further online references to a depot ship at Campbeltown, so it's up to member's memories or better knowledge to pad this one out.
I have to assume the RN know they had a depot ship at Campbeltown at some point, perhaps it wasn't there very long, and has been forgotten or ignored, but it's odd that I can find references and names for craft as small as a harbour patrol vessel, but not a depot ship, which could almost be considered a fixture, and relatively noticeable.
I can confirm the submarine training aspect with HMS Osprey and HMS Nimrod being the well-known training schools already identified - shuffled up here to avoid the Luftwaffe buzzing around their natural homes down on the south coast.
I can also confirm the visits from operational submarines on patrol, and...
While it may not have been a permanent posting in the sense that the Holy Loch and Rothesay Bay were, the well-known depot ship HMS Cyclops did use the protection of of Campbeltown Loch to allow submarines to utilise its facilities:
Responsibility for the day-to-day management of the functions of HM Naval Base Clyde is vested in Naval Base Commander Clyde (NBC) /Deputy FOSNNI, who is also Commodore HMS Neptune and Authorisee of the Nuclear Site.
This paragraph indicates that the organisation of HMNB Clyde is similar to that of HMNB Devonport and HMNB Portsmouth; these are not the same as HMS DRAKE and HMS NELSON, which are part of the Naval Base, but do not apply to the whole Naval Base.
To illustrate this from Rosyth as it was at least until 1990, FOSNI (Flag Officer Scotland & Northern Ireland) at Pitreavie was the Area Flag Officer, while the Naval Base was commanded by the Port Admiral. HMS COCHRANE was the naval establishment supporting the Naval Base and had its own Commanding Officer (a Captain). HMS CALEDONIA, as a training establishment was not part of this organisational structure, but was directly responsible to Commander-in-Chief Naval Home Command. Thus NEPTUNE is not an alternative name for HMNB Clyde (or for what formerly the Clyde Submarine Base). It refers to a specific part of this Base; hence the references to Commodore HMS NEPTUNE and Captain HMS NEPTUNE. This is separate from the appointment as Naval Base Commander, although, as here, one person may hold both appointments, as well as the appointment to staff of FOSSNI (rationalisation?).
This may seem complicated or even nit-picking, but in the interest of accuracy HMS NEPTUNE needs to be distinguished from the Clyde Submarine Base, of which it is only one part.
Didn't you realise? SeSco's middle name is "nitpicker"!
Always, always, always nitpick and question anything that doesn't seem to be right - it's the only way it will be addressed, and I only wish there was more.
I freely admit that I deliberately word some content I add to attract comments where the source is unclear, especially if the original is unclear or these is no alternative source or reference cited. I have to try and attract feedback, without overtly making an error or mis-quoting material, so sometime have to add an innocent comment.
I won't point fingers and list the sources that specifically state HMS Neptune is HMNB Faslane (since they're easily found and there's no name-calling in here ). I had hoped they were right since they're higher profile than SeSco, and hadn't attracted correction or comment, but I guess not.
The problem with HMS Neptune, unlike HMS Caledonia which we know is a discrete training facility, is that it is not differentiated in any of the articles in which it is referred to, nor can it be found uniquely described within the MoD-RN web site. They don't help by tending to use the the terms apparently haphazardly and referring to Faslane/Clyde/Neptune almost (and I do emphasise the almost) as if they were all the same and interchangeable.
I've been searching for some time for something that would let me refer to HMS Neptune as a discrete installation or entity within HMNB Clyde, but keep coming up with nothing.
I've always suspected it was something separate, but in the absence of something to refer to or cite, I thwarted in my attempts to include something like "HMS Neptune, the ???, is based within HMNB Clyde, Faslane."
And I detest having something like "HMS Neptune is based at HMNB Clyde", because the first thing that comes into my mind on reading that is "Ok, so what is HMS Neptune, why is it based at HMNB Clyde, and what does it do?"
So, who knows what function HMS Neptune serves, if it's not really HMNB Clyde, but a part of it?
I'll see you in hell.........some other time! Mystery
Posts: 99
HMS Neptune provides support services to the RN personnel at HMNB Clyde. It deals with accomodation, food, stores etc. HMS Nelson does the same in HMNB Portsmouth. The name just refers to the personnel support sides of the base. The RN likes to have an HMS in its bases as it looks better for a posting.
I thought I'd note down the research that goes into making a statement, just to show that most - even if they turn out to be inaccurate - are not just 'cut & pasted' without being verified from alternate sources. If not, we could just lift everything from Wikipedia, and save loads of time and effort.
Still doesn't guarantee not writing rubbish, even the best sources can be unclear. The biggest surprise is that there is no official listing of anything other than the major naval bases and air stations - anything smaller and you're on your own, and have to trawl all the articles to get to the truth.
The following was triggered by the various statements made above, about the various named establishments, which were used to track down supporting definitions from Royal Navy sources.
The italicised sections are direct quotes from the RN's own base histories and descriptions at http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/ In other words, if you don't agree, then I'm not the one to tell
(There were detailed urls for each quoted part, unfortunately a crash robbed me of them.)
----
The memory of Sir Francis Drake, Mayor of Plymouth as well as Great National hero is kept alive in the name, HMS DRAKE, which was recently extended to the whole of Devonport Naval Base.
So it seems HMS Drake was a separate entity, but is now the whole base, according to the RN.
----
2000, Integration of Naval Base with HMS Nelson.
So HMS Nelson is distinct entity within the Portsmouth base.
----
A Naval establishment has occupied the present site since 1939 when building commenced on the shore training facility for Artificer Apprentices. The previous establishment, completed in 1940, was commissioned as HMS Caledonia, the Royal Naval Artificer Training Establishment Rosyth.
The establishment operated as a single facility unit until 1977, when with the introduction of a harbour training squadron comprising HM Ships Eastbourne and Duncan it was effectively divided into two operational units... This second unit provided "hands on" experience of main propulsion machinery and an insight into the problems associated with its operation without the student having to go to sea.
In 1985 artificer training moved to HMS Sultan in Gosport and "Caledonia" became a satellite unit of the fleet accommodation centre HMS Cochrane.
On the 1st April 1996 HMS Cochrane closed and HMS Caledonia once again became an establishment in its own right, assuming its present role for support of the Royal Navy at Rosyth as the Royal Navy Support Establishment.
The continued presence in the Rosyth area of the name HMS Caledonia preserves the strong links between the Royal Navy and Fife on the East coast of Scotland. Links that go back more than 90 years and will now be maintained into the 21st Century.
So we know both Caledonia, and once Cochrane too, were distinct from the Rosyth base. Something we covered some time ago on our Rosyth page.
(As an aside, I happened to find that HMS Scotia is situated within HMS Caledonia at Rosyth).
---- The RNSMS (RN Submarine School) is the Royal Navy's Lead School for Submarine Warfare and Weapons Engineering training providing career, professional and continuation instruction at all levels for the Flotilla. We execute and coordinate this important role through training at six principle sites, namely HMS Neptune at Faslane, Submarine Escape Training Tank in Fort Blockhouse, HMS Dryad, HMS Sultan and HMS Collingwood at Portsmouth, SM2 in Devonport Naval Base and HMS Raleigh at Torpoint.
And...
Called to the Bar in July 1988, and after practice in the courts of London as a barrister, he became the Executive Assistant to the Captain HMS Neptune at the Clyde Submarine Base, Faslane.
So this suggest Neptune is "at" Faslane.
The ship is based at HMS Neptune, HMNB Clyde during the week.
Hmm... fuzzy language, maybe not so clear cut. Search for more references.
After three years being surrounded by tales of daring-do at 30,000 feet, she was re-appointed to run the London Office of the Second Sea Lord, and, to balance her time with the Fleet Air Arm, was subsequently sent north to become the Executive Officer of HMS Neptune within HM Naval Base Clyde from January 1997 to December 1998.
AH! So, unless designations have changed in the past ten years, it seems we have a clear and definite separation of the two names at last...
And finally, the eventually give us a hint as to Neptune's function...
Work is underway on Project Neptune, a £125 million rebuild of the accommodation on the Base, which will see it become the most comfortable and well-equipped military single living quarters in the UK with over 1700 single en-suite cabins for every rank from Able Rate to Admiral.
All straightforward and simple, and only a matter of a few minutes work
The Andrew ( RN ) was always famous for convoluted chains of command. I remember in Malta there was a bakery within the precincts of the Victualling Yard. The latter was a civilian run operation under a Superintendent of the Victualling Yard. The bakery was the RN Bakery and was under the command of an RN officer and had it's own MFV to deliver the bread. This must have made sense to someone at some time!
Of course, all the above discussion was a complete waste of time, and the matter could have been resolved in a moment had the mighty tome of the Sunday Herald have been consulted to begin with, and the authoritative words of a professional journalist who writes for a newspaper been taken as the fact of matter since, as we all know, those who write for newspapers write only the truth and always research their information fully and publish only rock-solid facts:
From Dounreay to Devonport, the UK's nuclear deterrent casts a shadow over the whole country, consting millions of pounds a year
Quoted Text
Here, just a short drive from Glasgow, past the mansions of Helensburgh, behind a vast expanse of razor wire, lies the beating heart of Britain's nuclear arsenal. Faslane, the Royal Navy Clyde Submarine Base - or, to give it its official designation, HMS Neptune - is where the submarines come in from ocean patrol. Yet you could drive through the whole of pine-covered Argyll without ever realising the immense destructive power housed just around the next glen and bay.
So there we have, it's been in the paper, we're all wrong, and HMS Neptune IS Faslane, the Royal Navy Clyde Submarine Base.
Torcuil Crichton, and the Sunday Herald, said so.
Strange though, that he didn't come up with the official name of HMNB Clyde - The Royal Navy must be wrong too!
Actually, the guy seems to have little awareness, as I can tell you that if you stop at certain places while you "drive through the whole of pine-covered Argyll without ever realising the immense destructive power housed just around the next glen and bay" you will realise something when you are challenged by an official car carrying security officers.
Because I'm usually hunting for unusual things, I keep a (very) low profile, but know people this has happened to, including one poor soul working hard nearby who headed for a public car park overlooking the base with his flask and sandwiches for a break, only to find himself shifted - and no questions allowed.
I'll see you in hell.........some other time! Mystery
Posts: 99
The depot ship "HMS Adamant" arrived at Faslane bay in 1958 having previously been based at Rothesay with the 3rd submarine squadron. She was replaced in 1962 by "HMS Maidstone" who became the depot ship for the 3rd submarine squadron.
Faslane was officially commissioned on the 10th August 1967, with a new squadron formed shortly beforehand which became the 10th submarine squadron, based at Faslane bay, this squadron was to be the Polaris fleet. During this time various support facilities were constructed onshore to support the new squadron. "HMS Maidstone" left the base for the final time on the 23 January 1968. The formal base opening took place on the 10 May 1968. At this point the base became officially known as the "Clyde Submarine Base, HMS Neptune".
"HMS Neptune" was the name of the new depot ship, altough in this case it was shore based. It remained like this until 1st October 1996 when changed from the "Clyde Submarine Base" to "HM Naval Base Clyde". The change of name was due to FOSNI moving from Pitreavie to Faslane and the arrival of some minor warships.
The name "HMS Neptune" is still used when talking about the supply and support side of "HM Naval Base Clyde" but it isnt the name of the base, its just the supply ships name.
Just for reference the 3rd and 10th sqaudrons combined to form the First Submarine Squadron (SM1) in October 1993.
The crew of a least one of the Vanguard class nuclear subs is home for Christmas Doon the Watter - or something - and were captured as they passed sunny frosty Rossie-by-the-sea
As usual, courtesy of Zak, and if you're trying to identify the coastline and the features behind, that means the pic was taken from the Isle of Bute.
It cannot have been the same sub as it was going in the opposite diredtion i.e. out to sea but a sub went out yesterday at very high speed. It was ballasted down so that the deck was almost awash. It was going so fast that the bow wacve was covering the forward deck and washing about halfway up the conning tower. It was keeping up with the MOD plod boat at full speed which was acting as escort. There was a 360 degree light on the top of the conning tower constantly flashing the letter S in morse code.
I have seen hundreds of subs coming and going but never one at such a speed and never the flashing light.
I wonder what is going on? Has there been a problem?
The above pic seems to show the terminal at Hunterston. Can that be seen from Bute?
If you think about it, the sub above is heading south ie out to sea (my Christmas humour ignored this small fact, but would have been wasted otherwise}.
If your sub was going the other way to the one above it would have been going north, and bound for Faslane or Coulport.
No problem seeing Hunterston from the southeast shores of Bute, especially with a decent zoom on a dSLR, as a glance at the map will confirm.
Intrigued by the high speed dash and visual signal.
Offhand, I'd have thought that a nuclear sub, and in particular an armed nuclear sub, would have been limited in speed and submerged depth in waters near populated places to minimise the risk of grounding.
Granted that at the place described the channel is not really hard to find, and as we know they have access to the high accuracy military GPS signal, it still seems a touch risky - but I say that with only general knowledge of the existence of the channel, and they could have plenty of clearance to run as described with no risk of finding the sea bed inadvertently.
We know (from the BBC's Coast at least) that the channel from Bute to Faslane has only a few feet of clearance, and they have to use an appropriate tide and be piloted accurately to avoid the bottom, so running part submerged on the more northerly part of the channel just isn't possible - unless they're telling porkies.
S for Semi Submerged? I have no idea, perhaps someone else has.
I have just had a look at my Dad's 1932 Admiralty Manual of Seamanship and I see he has noted in pencil beside S what looks like Sub on Surface. Possibly used as boat was hull down and not easy to see on a rather gloomy day.
Mind you the international signal S stands for "I need a pilot" so possibly denoting the absence of a pilot on board.
Possibly, possibly but I have seen hundred's of submarines on their way out of the Firth but I have never before seen one hulldown and going at such a speeed. Neither have I seen the light before.
When the yanks were here they were famous for having only 2 speeds viz full ahead and stop, whereas the brits travelled much more sedately with much less wash.
Possibly??? No, it was Vanguard heading out on patrol.
I was going to say it was on the news but it was part of the programme I listed, which was fresh off the microphone and featured special recording of actual nuclear weapons release drills recorded on Vanguard before she set off.
I recommend a listen, as the last thing heard in the programme is the click of the Weapons Officer operating the button firing the first nuclear missile of the salvo of 16 that Vanguard would unleash if the deterrent failed and the launch was authorised.
I reckon you've probably caught the start of an armed patrol for the first time
There morse "S" would probably mean, as you pointed out, that there was no pilot on board (as the sub was hot) and would make its way to deep water as quickly as possible and dive immediately to vanish and avoid tracking, and not need to disembark.
There is no radio contact for the whole of an armed patrol, and the 160 or so Navy crew involved are the only personnel who have no contact whatsoever with anyone for the duration, including their families.
Before you ask, yes, there are high security comms systems that would come into play if there was an actual conflict, designed not to give away the sub;s position if used - the absence of which would also confirm that there had been a conflict.
Incidentally, if you go to http://ssa.nls.uk/ and punch Argyllshire and select Titles with clips, there's a clip of the American from the 1960 among them. There's quite a few very nostalgic clips in there too, and worth a look as they're only an average of a minute, so you can look at them all without spending hours watching.
The last one was easy, but my tired and feeble mind can't place this one so quickly, despite what should be an obvious clue on the hillside in the background. Guess I spend too much time look at, rather than off, Bute when I can get there
This is to the north of Cumbrae. The castle to the left is Knock Castle at NS 194 630. The Map lat lon page has disappeared so I cannnot be more accurate.
This is not the sub I saw going out as it was still hull down at that point.
I don't think the one I saw was a Trident boat but it was hard to tell with most of it underwater. However, the front of the conning tower/fin seemed to be vertical. I assume that it was a hunter killer.
Today I saw a vanguard class sub see being escorted into Faslane at about 15:00hrs. It was being escorted in by two tugs, 6 black ribs teaming with armed marines, one of which had a front mounted 50 mm machine gun. 2 police launches were also present and the boom was held open by a tug to allow the ub into berth. There was one rib to the front of the sub, then 2 each side and 2 to the rear and 1 circling to the rear. Awesome sight indeed. I was in the hills above and scoped it and it really has to be one of the most sinister things I've seen at Faslane. The marines ribs looked so threatening as all of these guys were armed to the teeth!
Interestingly there was a very intimidating pretend war going on in the hills behind at the camp in Glen Fruin. For a good 3 hrs there was a heck of a racket echoing all around the sea loch with booms and high caliber weapons being fired in rapid short bursts with the pop pop pop of small arms...it really was something else.
I'll see you in hell.........some other time! Mystery
Posts: 99
The firing in the hills would have been FPGRM's up at the firing ranges, they are usually up at least once a week. Being out in one of the RIBs at this time of year is not fun as it is usually a wee bit cold!!!! They use two types of RIBs for that duty, the smaller Artic 22 which usually carries between 4 and 6 FPG booties and the bigger Arctic 28 which can have anything up to 12 on board. All the boats can have weapons mounted in the bows but it can make the 22 a wee bit nose heavy which gives a wet ride in heavy seas when its all up. The 22 is capable of about 40 knots and the 28 is a fair bit quicker. The one that circles at the back is the hard boarding boat and its crew are not usually FPG.
Just for reference the sub that went out at speed with his nav light flashing was nothing special. It is also very unusual for a pilot to be put onto one of the subs for a Rhu transit whether the boat is hot or not.
Just spotted BBC2's Coast short from HMS Vanguard's refit trials of 2005 was available, and had a look to see what the clip included.
Of note is not only the sub, and the tale of navigating the Clyde channel for Faslane, but at the start there is a good shot of the Sugar Boat, the wrecked MV Captayannis that lies in the middle of the Firth of Clyde.
Currently listed as available until Friday (Jab 23, 2009) I suspect this may be available longer than this as they are always dropping these 5 minute Coast shorts into the schedule.
I was posted to HMS Neptune as a marine in the late 70,s as part of the security detail there, The stamp in my posting record says HMS Neptune and so did my wifes who was a Wren working in the underwater warfare section. At that time it was all Neptune,, but just known as Faslane.
It's beginning to be evident that it depends who you ask, and when they were involved with HMS Neptune / HMNB Clyde / Faslane.
The answer seems to vary over time.
There's probably also a degree of lazy, sloppy, uneducated journalism involved as well, as I'm sure none of those who write for the newspapers or new services know or care that there is any possible difference in the name applicable in any particular location, and I won't even bother to comment on how little the so-called peace campaigners care, as long as they can shout "Faslane" and "danger" at a camera or microphone in one breath.
It's just a pity that the Royal Navy hasn't seen fit to provide definitive listing for its establishments past and present on its own site which should really be the source of such knowledge.
I've actually spent some time searching the site for references to HMS Neptune, which appears on quite a number of occasions, and seems to be used when referring to social events, such as visits by personalities, and when reporting games and sports events held between establishments.
I thought it would have been possible to infer the current application of the name to the facility, but the more you read, the more it becomes apparent that the names are largely used interchangeably, so there's really little surprise that the public media can't do any better
Pity it's not the old days when I occasionally fell in the door, I might have been able to track down someone that would have given a really definitive answer.
Still, I don't feel so bad about being wrong/confused when I first tried to define it, or just getting more lost as I tried to nail it down.
There are references above to a BBC programme "The Human Button", relating the background to the sealed letters carried in safes on board Vanguard and her sisters, detailing their orders in the event that the prime minister is unable to issue instruction in the aftermath of the nuclear destruction of the United Kingdom.
I just found the web site to go along with the programme, and it carries some of the detail...
It's not often I find a scenario that makes it difficult to envisage a clear cut reaction in response to a given circumstance, but I still find myself 50/50 on the next step in such a situation.
On the one hand, if looking at the UK glowing warmly after it had been subject to nuclear devastation, I see no problem with the view that the nuclear deterrent had failed, and that deploying it would be pointless.
On the other, I can find no reason not to give equal weight to the view that retaliation should be deployed as those responsible should not be allowed to carry out their strike and wipe out a country (or countries for that matter) for free, and at no cost to themselves.
Just a brief note in passing to record the event of HMNB Clyde ibecoming the dedicated home for the UK's entire nuclear-powered submarine fleet.
The move is part of a major shake-up of the Royal Navy announced by the Armed Forces Minister Bob Ainsworth.
Trafalgar class submarines, currently based at Devonport in Plymouth, will begin joining the Vanguard fleet based at Faslane in about five years time. The next generation of frigates will be based at the Portsmouth Naval Base.
Three Trafalgar class submarines will transfer to Faslane from Devonport, with the last of these moving in 2017 on current plans. They will serve alongside the Faslane-based Vanguard class which are armed with Trident nuclear missiles.
A successor class of Future Deterrent submarines will eventually replace the Vanguard class at Faslane.
The new Astute class boats are also to be based on the Clyde when they enter service.
Naval Base Commander Clyde Commodore Chris Hockley said: "There is a very positive outlook for Clyde Naval Base and we look forward to developing our specialisation as the sole operating base for the submarine fleet and base for eight mine warfare ships. I am pleased to be able to provide certainty about the future for our people, for Babcock, our industrial partner, and for the Navy under these plans. The base is an integral part of the community here and these plans demonstrate that this will continue for many years to come."
HMNB Clyde spends more than £250 million a year in Scotland.
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). I had hoped they were right since they're higher profile than SeSco, and hadn't attracted correction or comment, but I guess not.
ICQ
Skype
but it was part of the programme I listed, which was fresh off the microphone and featured special recording of actual nuclear weapons release drills recorded on Vanguard before she set off.
