The pipeline to Grangemouth must have been bidirectional as it is assumed to have supplied Mountblow. A major part of its work was/is pumping crude oil through to the refinery in Grangemouth.
I done some work there back in '03, part of that was a wee dig up the hill side looking for the pipe that goes to Grangemouth - in order to check its condition, a pilot of a schedule to check it physically across its route ........... two weeks later and it wasn't found. Seems BP's plans aren't what they thought they were.
There was a major refurb of the four tanks on the landward side of the terminal in anticipation of North Sea production falling. We used to joke about the one whose cladding had been blown off to reveal its wartime camouflage [painted on by the Yanks apparently] and laughed how a terrorist would miss that one because it was invisible.
Bidirectional flow on a pipeline such as this seems fraught with technical and logistical problems.
Although referred to as a pipeline, which might be notionally suggestive of a single pipe running along its length, as it would be carrying different product to and from the refinery, might there be two actual pipes, each serving in the appropriate direction?
I have no detailed knowledge of this installation, nor any idea for the moment where to dig some up with reasonable ease.
I would be surprised if itwas just one pipe given the work it has been expected to do but I do not know for sure and the answer may well still be classified.
I don't know how they deal with multiple product and the need to transport different materials in both directions, but since a refinery is a continuous process that doesn't like to stop, I imagine simultaneous flow of different materials in both directions at once is almost a necessity, as you can't tell a tanker to hold on for a few day while they finish processing a batch. and the tank farm can only hold so much.
Crude oil arriving for refining can be like black tar, and heavy fuel oil not much better (if it's still used) while diesel/kerosene and petrol aren't going to be popular if mixed in for customers that don't want them. Presumably there will still be the byproducts like tar and pitch to be shifted as well.
On the other hand, we're forgetting that there are docks at the refinery - what is loaded and unloaded there?
Perhaps one end is used for receipt of crude oil, while the other is used for despatching refined product, and there is only the need to have multiple flows around the terminals, so they have the required material being pumped in to, or out of, their tank farms?
All that expensive education must have been worth something then... even if it didn't help be find the terminal in the Gaz - wonder what I did wrong (ah! just thick).
Crude (20 inch) and product (12 inch) nicely separated.
I guess "Innovene operates a 12-inch multiproduct pipeline" means that there might be multiple feeds running within the 12-inch outer, unless they run batches to allow the pipeline to clear!
58 miles of 12-inch pipe would hold rather a lot of material, and I don't think they're likely to just open the tap and let it run until it's empty before they shove something different down it (just kidding by the way, just in case ).
I'll see you in hell.........some other time! Rumour
Posts: 68
There is a junction in the pipe on the banks of Loch Lomond where the pipe for Mountblow branches off. The disused one can be seen above ground at one point close to the junction. If any one wants to see it then let me know and i can give you better directions.
I'll see you in hell.........some other time! Rumour
Posts: 68
Handy page!! The junction compound is in the walled off section (:gma-point lat=56.0157373 lon=-4.6112376 (:mlat:56.0157373(:mlon:-4.6112376(:mngr6:NS373833 (:gma-map
The pipe is located here (:gma-point lat=56.0153595 lon=-4.6094728 (:mlat:56.0153595(:mlon:-4.6094728(:mngr6:NS374833 (:gma-map
To avoid suffering from an overload of happiness, these is a checkbox that allows one to Disable Smiles? on the Post Options just under the message box - it can be useful on the odd occasion
Bit unfortunate about the coincidence of character combinations sometimes, especially if you like to stuff stuff inside brackets.
I've added the markers quickly, as I'm partway through adding some more detailed info and revamping the page (it's not done yet, so no pointing out errors).
To avoid suffering from an overload of happiness, these is a checkbox that allows one to Disable Smiles? on the Post Options just under the message box - it can be useful on the odd occasion
Bit unfortunate about the coincidence of character combinations sometimes, especially if you like to stuff stuff inside brackets.
This photo [on the Garelochead- Arrochar road] was taken just to the south of the main gate of the Finnart terminal - the gatehouse of which tis on the left. The gatehouse to the landward tank farm is on the right. Behind the dyke - on the right - is a deep natural and ragged cutting which a fast flowing burn flows through down to Loch Long, over the burn at this point the two pipelines cross.
Nice pic catching the two lodges together, I think it will end up on the page.
I think it's more or less up to date with the info we have.
I was trying to add some more info I managed to dig up about the two houses, but when I started testing it, it started to fall apart in the detail, so I eventually decided to cut my losses and abandon it.
I still need to work in a mention of a fountain at the front of the now derelict Finnart House, which I just spotted in the detail of an old map dating from within a few years of the build
There is also the question of the spur from the main pipeline that went to Rosneath Naval Base built by the Americans according to the Rosneath website.
It also occurs to me that the small refined products pipeline must have been connected to the AvGas storage depot between the bonded warehouses to the east of Dumbarton.
The other thought is that these lines must run through the city!!
Can you find the specific mention of the Rosneath spur? I had a quick look to refresh the details, and maybe make it a bit more noticeable, but can't find the note anywhere in the story. I might be looking in the wrong place of course.
Careful with those word choices It may be better to play safe unless or until something turns up, and just suggest that the other storage depot was connected to the Finnart pipe. It just might have been piped in as a supplement to one of the other tank farms.
Intriguing thought about the city
I suspect the reality will be that it skirts much of the area, and will have been routed across country, and there is also the earlier mentions we had in the canal tales, where there was a note somewhere about the pipeline following the route of the canal because it made the job quick and easy.
If we plot too many bits that we find, maybe the security services will "Have a word"!
The reference in the Rosneath Peninsula website has been edited out. The site has undergone considerable change since the last time I looked at it. The disappearance may not mean it was found to be untrue as the revised site seems to have a format of all pages being much the same size and with a few pics added there may have been pressure on space.
Ther used to be a lengthy reminiscence from an Ameriacan ( I think) which does not apear to be there either.
Not so much extended, more joined up the dots and filled in the spaces separating former settlements along the edge
There's always debate about Glasgow and Greater Glasgow - Hey! The city's population is falling guys. Oh that's ok, we'll just move the edge and make it a bit bigger
Glad you found the Rosneath pages changed too - I was beginning to wonder if I was imagining things!
Probably goes without saying I don't approve of cutting material once found (unless it's truly irrelevant to the subject of course)
Know the story you mean, Harve's story is now just a link to his original site.
I don't doubt the voracity of the story due to its apparent removal, but since I tried to find it by doing a batch of searching last night, and came up empty, it means we're missing the validator of a reference for a little known "fact", and that's a bit sad, since there was a perfectly good one.
Although I tend to think of the following site as "military" (because that's the way I was first introduced), it's anything but, and it seems rather surprising that the Finnart to Grangemouth Pipelines (FGOP) does not appear on the map.
Given the observation above about its potential proximity to the city and numerous ground-breaking (literally) works that must take place in significant numbers every year, it's something of a mystery that the pipeline doesn't appear, although there is a direct link to the Innovene page the Captain provided above, but that only describes the pipeline, and not a clue as to where it lies - other than to warn readers not to assume they know where it is - and provides contact numbers.
The rapid progress which was made by Navy contractors in the construction of the four bases in the United Kingdom made it evident, late in 1941, that skilled American engineers and mechanics soon would be available from these high-priority projects. It was decided that they might well be used to augment the facilities existing in Great Britain for the distribution of petroleum products.Enlisting the assistance of major American oil companies, and in consultation with the British Admiralty and Petroleum Board, the Bureau of Yards and Docks planned a pipe line in Dumbartonshire, Scotland.
This 25-mile pipe line, a part of the Gare Loch installation, was laid between Old Kilpatrick (Bowling) and Loch Long, off the Firth of Clyde. The purpose of the line was to provide a connection between the pipeline network already installed between Edinburgh and Glasgow, and Old Kilpatrick, and to extend this connection to Finnart on Loch Long, where discharging of tankers and fueling of surface craft might proceed in an unrestricted channel which could not be closed by sinkings through bombing attacks.
The pipe line was a double line, consisting of a 12-inch line for fuel oil and an 8-inch line for refined products. The terminus for refined products was in existing space at the British Petroleum Board tank farm at Old Kilpatrick. In addition, there was an 8-inch branch line which ran south the length of the peninsula, some 7 miles, to serve the tank farm at Rosneath.
The system was designed for high-pressure operation (the first in the British Isles) without intermediate pumping stations, and it was to have a capacity of 42,000 barrels per day through the 12-inch line and 30,000 barrels through the 8-inch
--70-- Rosneath, Scotland Dock area at the Seabee base; tanks and industrial section in the center background
line. The 25-miles route rose from near sea-level at both ends to an elevation of more than 600 feet at the summit. Pumping plants capable of handling pressures up to 750 pounds per square inch were required for both lines at Finnart, and, as the system provided for two-way flow, they were duplicated for the 8-inch line at Bowling and for the 12-inch at Old Kilpatrick. At the Finnart terminus, on Loch Long, other requisite facilities also were installed: a tanker berth (reinforced-concrete pier with 35-foot depth of water at low tide), 110,000 barrels of fuel-oil storage (with boilers for steam-heating the oil), and storage capacity for 75,000 barrels of lighter oils. The two fuel-oil tanks (55,000 barrels each) had been removed from the old Teapot Dome installation. Because of the acid condition of the soil, a bitumastic felt-wrapped coating was applied at a coating plant brought over from the United States.
Installation began in May. As work on higher-priority projects was "topping out," more materials became available for this project,and it was possible to build the force up to 1,800 men. Just as the actual laying of pipe got under way in August, it was necessary for some of the contract personnel to undertake maintenance of Rosneath because of its return to the United States Navy.
Though every effort had been made to get as much accomplished as possible during the favorable weather and long summer days, the task was not easy on the main lines. A more difficult terrain for pipeline construction could scarcely be imagined than this route through the southern highlands of Scotland. Sparsity of adequate highways necessitated the building of construction roads, a task which was made especially difficult by rugged country, peat bogs, and subsoil drains. These drains, which were spaced 25 feet apart, presented a dual problem. Not only did they have to be replaced in workable order, but also, when cut by the ditchers, they had to be repaired immediately because they poured water into trenches dug for the line. The incessant rainfall, 5 to 10 inches per month, kept the earth perpetually saturated.
The installation was 70 percent complete by February 1943, but pumps and special equipment had not yet arrived from the United States when the contract was terminated for the civilian forces on March 31, 1943. In April, the Rosneath detachment of the 29th Seabees, aided by five officers and
--71-- Tank Farm, Rosneath, Scotland Photograph taken at the Seabee base in August 1944
194 men from the battalion who had completed their work at Londonderry, set out to finish the project. Shipments of material arrived.By July, both lines had been completed and tested, and the installations were turned over to the British Petroleum Board for maintenance and operation. On July 31, 1943, all Seabee personnel were withdrawn.
Industrial Section at the Seabee Base, Rosneath Tank farm in the background
Fascinating site, thought I’d add my tupance worth and hope to contribute in the future. The Finnart/Grangemouth 12” multiproduct line is a single line and different grades of product (petrol, diesel, jet fuel etc) are “packed” one after the other, separation can be by pigs but you don’t have to use them, surprisingly there is very little mixing in a pipeline, its just down to opening and closing valves at the right time, product is normally sent to tanks before being placed on a tanker so any “contaminated” product can be diluted down. I believe there are/were spurs to Rosneath, Erskine, Bowling and to Faslane, in fact there was recently talk about taking a spur under the Clyde to the airport. For some of the distance there is a third redundant 8” which is referenced in the metalab extract. I think they even added in a number of huge loops to increase the capacity of the pipeline because storage at Finnart was limited. The 20” crude line in the opposite direction brings in “distressed” (cheap high sulphur high acid) crude from around the world which is blended for the refinery feed stock with Forties crude from the North Sea. I think this was added after the war as the Grangemouth refinery was shut down during the war.
Marking pipelines on maps and on the web is always a bit of a quandary, you don’t want to advertise their presence as they could make an attractive terrorist target but on the other hand you don’t want the farmer to dig them up! As far as I’m aware the route from Grangemouth is past the Falkirk stadium up the forth vally under the M9, not sure where from there but probably past Kippen, then Balloch, Duck Bay marina and along Glen Fruin, in fact there is an old military road up there which runs parallel to the line known by locals as the “Yankee” presumably after those that built it.
Fascinating stuff, and interesting techie bits too
Welcome cell, and on the off-chance this forum is all you've found so far, this is just the discussion page for the main page, where the verified stuff eventually goes.
Also lets us bounce around stuff that might have copyright problems if were to include in the main site page as an article, rather than for discussion here.
Not my area, but given the pressures and flow-rates involved in the pipeline transfer, I'm not surprised batch processing can be done by sequential switching, presumably all under computer control.
There is a 'pig' situated at Finnart [landward tank farm] in front of the empty mansion house which is between the two big middle tanks - behind the old workshop/garage on the Arrochar road. When I worked there it was checked every day by an engineer from 'across the road'.
I heard today that the largest tanker ever to visit Finnart Ocean Terminal is due tomorrrow, time unknown. Apparently the ferry companies have been warned of the visit.
I assume that the works that have been carried out at the south of the site was to create facilities for the latest VLCCs.
I heard today that the largest tanker ever to visit Finnart Ocean Terminal is due tomorrrow, time unknown. Apparently the ferry companies have been warned of the visit.
I assume that the works that have been carried out at the south of the site was to create facilities for the latest VLCCs.
Para 1. It would be nice to catch a pic of this. Hopefully somebody in Portincaple just down the loch from Finnart took a pic and post it somewhere we can find it.
Para2. Thats why I was working there in '03. BP were planning ahead of the reduction in production from their North Sea fields by upgrading the Finnart Ocean Terminal storage facilities.
I've been watching AIS and Clydesights too, but nothing has appeared that would qualify, so it looks like this one's not going to run, unless there's been a delay.
It looked good late on the day suggested, as at least four of the Clyde's tugs were massed at Finnart, but there was vessel showing along with them.
It looks as if the VLCC has arrived. The Ashna is lying to the north of Cumbrae and apparently destined for Finnart. She is over 300,000 tons. Due at Finnart on the 22nd according to one AIS site. Strangely she is not showing up at all on another AIS site.
Had a look, but can't see Ashna an any of the AIS systems online at the moment.
Interestingly, one shows the Marida Maple currently at Finnart.
It's not strange that the different AIS sites are showing different reports, as each site is served by a different set of volunteers and receivers feeding data to the servers that plot the results shown on the web.
AIS is a local VHF system, originally intended at providing info for ships etc near each other, or a port/harbour that would be interested in them, and vice versa. According to a Canadian site I found that considered system operation, the typical range at sea is in the order of 20 nm. At a guess, land station concerned only with receiving the signals will do better, being able to install dedicated aerials for reception in a sea ward direction, both mounted higher, and with some gain designed in.
But, the web has changed lots of things, so now we can see everything at once
Very strange. The Ansha is listed as position unknown in one of the listings and she is doing 0.2 knots on a northerly course. As far as I know there is a very large ship still anchored to the north of Cumbrae. I'll have a look later and let you know.
The VLCC Ashna is a modern crude oil tanker built by the renowned South Korean shipyard Halla Engineering and Heavy Industries Ltd., boasting state-of-the-art design features such as double bottom and double hull. This vessel has a length of 330 m and a width of 58 m
Very strange. The Ansha is listed as position unknown in one of the listings and she is doing 0.2 knots on a northerly course. As far as I know there is a very large ship still anchored to the north of Cumbrae. I'll have a look later and let you know.
I've managed to trawl up some history (amazing what you sometimes find if you start pressing "buttons" you don't normally touch ) and according to what I can see, Ashna has already been to Finnart - was moored there on December 15, Tuesday - ao ia presumably now making ready to depart.
The plotting of her data is odd, as she does not seem to appear most of the time. I've never seen her on the usual plots, although I reckon the swarming tugs I have noticed over the past few days must have associated with her (invisible) movements.
Could simply be badly mounted aerial, shielded by something on the ship's superstructure, which could cause it to become directional, a duff connector the crew is unaware of, faulty aerial, or a rubbish AIS head unit, as someone bought something cheap and nasty.
It's a common data system, so there should be no compatibility issues with the various receivers being used to feed the AIS mappers.
----
Greek and Liverpool AIS both have Finnart covered and can both be zoomed into it.
Which AIS provider doesn't have coverage of Finnart?
Live ships map AIS has not been showing ships at Finnart but is today. Now that visibility is clearer it is possible to see that the Ashna appears to be in ballast. Her AIS is certainly variable as she has only shown up at anchor from time to time over the past couple of days.
Marida Maple, which was moored at Finnart and then disappeared - has just re-appeared, crossing the Rothesay ferry route and heading south, but no sign of Ashna, which she will be passing.
Thank goodness, Ashna has at last decided to make an appearance off Cumbrae, and stick around long enough to plot a handful of points to show she is just drifting around a mooring point, at the moment at least.
I was beginning to think we were trying to follow a ghost ship
(Mind you, even when I looked again, the live plot of the ship had gone, and only the few tracked points were still to be seen, so it had gone again).
The other strange thing is that everytime I look at her she seems to be further and further out of the water. I am wondering if she came in with ballast and is waiting to load rather than unload.
Although I'd be interested in playing with AIS reception, there would be no point in even trying from the little hollow I live down in near Glasgow, hence being glued to the online version since they first appeared years ago. Also meant there was little point in looking too closely at the system details - I'd have to move nearer the coast to make the effort worthwhile.
Just had a visual on the Euro Swan heading back uo the Firth. She has been up an down for several days. I think they are transferring the Anshe's cargo onto smaller vessels for transport to Faslane. Unfortunately it is not easy to see what is going on from this side of the water.
You might be surprised what you hear! I am sitting here with my magnetic base antenna on top of the fireplace (back from window) and been receiving one or two vessels up Loch Striven and always receive the "Loch Dunvegan" Bute ferry."
Just had a visual on the Euro Swan heading back uo the Firth. She has been up an down for several days. I think they are transferring the Anshe's cargo onto smaller vessels for transport to Faslane. Unfortunately it is not easy to see what is going on from this side of the water.
Euro Swan appears to have come from Northern Ireland via Arran.
You're probably on a "sweet-spot" that favours some of the signals in your direction, but you know as well as I do how some of these signals can work there way into strange and wonderful places, and which you would be placing your job on the line with, if you ever took on a bet to get an unrepeated signal there.
I really do live in a hollow that means I can guarantee nothing, with the Campsies on one side, and Cathkin Braes on the other.
At one point, I used to have a pole almost 5 metres through and above my roof, but had to pull it in a few years ago when the seal gave out, and things just kept getting too wet in the loft. It had a superb wideband discone on top, and used to have my amateur TV long yagi below, all sitting on a rotator, hence the dodgy seal. All pointless now, as for a few pounds you can stream video anywhere across the web, compared to the hundreds and hundreds of pound it used to cost to set up masts, rotators, beam antennas, video cameras, UHF transmitters, VHF link for sound etc etc.
Thanks goodness for AIS on the web or we'd never know what places like Finnart were ever doing.
Ashna made a re-appearance (after disappearing yesterday) this morning, Mon Dec 21, and has finally arrived at Finnart.
As I look at the data, she is shown just short of the actual terminal itself on the map, and her status as "Draught limit" so she may be waiting for the tide to make the last few metres, and then have to begin discharging immediately, so that the next low tide doesn't see her hit bottom.
Might tie in with The Fox's earlier observation that she may have been offloading some of her cargo while moored to the north of Cumbrae, and gain some clearance before proceeding.
This is all a bit strange. The first time I saw her she appeared to be fully laden but everytime I saw her again she appeared to be less and less laden. I never saw another ship along side and AIS did not show one.
Unfortunately the roads round here are dreadful so there is little chance of getting over to Loch Long for any pics. Perhaps somone else might be able to do so.
She may have been carrying seawater ballast, and was discharging this prior to taking up her slot at Finnart.
Such large ships are designed to have an optimal waterline for maximum fuel economy as they travel through the water, and as they pick up and deliver, their draught can vary and upset this.
I don't know if this is true of Ashna, as noted earlier, I couldn't dig up any worthwhile vessel details last time I tried, but it's an educated guess that could account for an apparent change in draught while moored.
Meanwhile, all say Thank You to Zak, who did manage to catch Ashna when she wasn't "invisible"
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