In light of the mention of an 1,100 metre runway at Augsburg, rather than try and measure what sort of runway length could have been provided at Dungave House, I simply tried placing a 1,100 metre line (suitably oriented) on the field where the runway has been identified.
Even without infringing on the contour lines that show the steepest part of this land, to the west, it is easy to show that a grass runway similar to Augsburg was available and reasonably level, and that means a Bf-110 could easily have been accommodated if required. And this becomes even easier when considered that it would not have been carrying any excess weight, other than the pilot.
And a bit of a slope is not a problem, so long as it's not excessive, AND the wind is blowing the right way!
A number of British wartime airfields were constructed on sites where both of these requirements applied - and the number of crashes reflected the problems of trying to operate from such a site, where flights had to be made regardless of the wind. Such airfields were generally abandoned after a while - wonder why?
Anyone can try this using the MAGIC map, which is presumably quite reliable, should they have any issues of conscience or similar with using Google or Bing mapping, or doubts their accuracy (but they come up with the same).
Just for discussion, Hess would not have needed drop-tanks if he had wanted to go back, since he only had to make it as far as German occupied territory, then could have ditched or parachuted, rather than finding a field, but I doubt this would have been necessary had the 'mission' been official, as he would only have been returning if it was successful. With no peace deal secured, I doubt the British would have let him go had the proposal been rejected, and he would have been given 'free room and board thereafter'.
Had the talks succeeded, then he would have been free to travel home safely by whatever means he wished, courtesy of Germany's newest ally
(I'm not suggesting any sort of officially sanctioned mission, or supporting the idea, merely reflecting on the practicality of a return flight.)
What a fantastic thread to have survived for nearly 6 years and have over 6500 views.
I spent some time back in the 80's researching what I could in answer to the question - 'What was the true identity of Prisoner Nr 7 in Spandau?'
I'm inclined to believe Dr Hugh Thomas, that it wasn't Rudolf Hess at all.
It may well have been Hess, and not Hauptman Albert Horn, who landed / crashed / baled out, but the man who was tried, jailed and eventually hung himself, is unlikely to have been Hess.
Of course comments on such articles always bring out the loony brigade.
"This is silly. They didn't hypnotise churchill, or bush or obama, or anyone. They don't need to. Control a country's finances, and you control the country. No need for mumbo-jumbo like hypnosis."
Anyone reading this should study alongside the book, that mentions private in great detail - more so than the BBC (book being free on the internet by David Stirling) , a few months ago Apollo did not like me mentioning this book & the denier author
I had been reading the 'Hess' story a couple of days ago and someone had asked for details on a Bf110 and Blenheim landing distances. Couldn't find the request again. From my Janes 1942 which I have dug out, a Bf 110c range is given as 1100kms (2.4hrs) max landing weight 6750kms no landing distance quoted. ( this range would be the 'return range' one way would be at least double. (Hess flew a bf110D which had extended range with wing drop tanks or a belly drop tank) Blenheim 1 take off was 271m, landing 333m with brakes, speed 81kph Weight 8100kms empty In regard to the ten year old witness, do not write him off. These were strange times and odd events tend to stay in young minds. I witnessed a German plane flying low, followed by at least three spitfires flying South between Haughhead Bridge and Blantryeferme on a fine evening and I was only four! We were chased into the house to shelter under a table set up in our lobby as a safe refuge during raids as our house regularly received sharpnel hits from the guns directly across the river. From my father ( policeman) I was always lead to believe that this was Hess heading towards his eventuall crash. Raids usually came during the night with planes following the river to Glasgow. Those of you who did not grow up during wartime, probably don't appreciate how these events stay in younger minds. Even although we played as kids we seemed to know that life was very serious. Kids learned quickly about weapons/planes/tanks etc. I had wooden plane models made by POWs and a regular entertainment was watching the army at their war games. Hess probably used the Clyde as a turning point to head South and crash landed either out of fuel or tired from a +4 hour flight being chased by RAF. Parachuting, especially first time, would have been a last resort, and he would have needed to climb for a safe jump height and time to struggle out. There were people who wanted to explore peace proposals, with the war setbacks Britain was alone, and virtually bankrupt having spent all its funds in USA. American aircraft companies used that money to build their new large factories which eventually helped to win the the supply war! Only Churchhill and a few others stood absolutely firm.
When I first came across this site I did wonder why people found old AA batteries etc of any interest. My initial interest was because I grew up in the Clydeside area and the various discussions activated long forgotten memories. I have now caught the 'Hess' bug! And boy is there such a massive store of information on the web about Hess and I have only scratched the surface. There is the newsreel interview of the farmer who first met him, the RAF map of his flight track, RAF reports of fighter interceptions (and recall), Government letters and reports, enough to keep me occupied for years! However, one day perhaps, the whole true story will emerge, the regret is that everyone who had anything to do with him or the flight incident will be long dead. My precise of the event:- ( based on many books particularly current releases) There was a British 'peace group' at that time, formed by anti-Churchill types and those with money/power to lose. Hamilton was involved either as Secret Service bait or if privately, quickly backed out as it would have been treason as a serving RAF officer. Hitler did want to end the western front to allow free rein to Russia. Hess was no fool, educated, good pilot, long time confident/friend of Hitler, admirer of Britain. The Bf 110 he flew was a brand new aircraft, not even alloted to a squadron, someone high up had to have given permission to use it. He flew a track designed to avoid the main interception defences of the English East coast, ( probably the German ones as well) and although flew almost direct to Hamilton's he appears to have got disoriented at the last leg. His track shows a Northernly heading over Blantyre but I definately seen my aircraft heading very low, southwards following the Clyde. I know , only just over four at the time but we played at being fighter pilots all day right up to dusk! He was tailed by 602 Sqd. Spitfires, reported as two aircraft one flown by the ace S/Ldr Al Deere! ( Hess was lucky as Al Deere scored four 109s in August 41, three on same day when 602 returned to front line and Hess would have been a sitting duck to him. Apparently Hess did parachute out. Although there is one report his plane crash landed. One would have thought his plane would have been more damaged crashing from parachute height even if expertly trimmed. The tail/fusilage section may still be on display somewhere, (Hendon?) So you all have ignited my flying interest, probably will be making models again soon although they are mostly plastic these days.
IMHO - you are up to speed until you get to aircraft interception. Likewise Hess was probably up to speed until he could not find the landing field lights.
Hess would be well aware of RAF night / all-weather fighter capabilities , he would know he had little to fear unless he had a Hurricane with Karel Kuttelwascher DFC on to him That would be so slim a chance over Scotland - Hess would discount the possibility.
My understanding is that Hess would first be detected over the North Sea by Ottercops Moss , by the time this was plotted by Ouston and a fighter vectored in , Royol Observer Corp info. plotted , control handed to Scotland - then the situation would be a bit time handicapped and events overtaken by the actions taken by Hess. Hess had a excellent flying record - but not one involving baling out , the situation for Hess at that stage must have been very grim - he was out of options & thinking time..
The only possibility of shooting Hess down would be if a Bristol Beaufighter was lurking that was equipped with radar interdiction and a observer / operator who was competent (IIRC that would be several months later over such as Malta). Possibly a Blenheim with similar equipment could have done the job if Hess was caught throttled back searching for his landing ground..
To attempt such a flight without assurance of a lit landing field , apparently the one error (using central european time) with the navigation flight plan involved Hess "stacking" over the North Sea for a considerable time. - his pre-planned eta , a pilot would have to be mad to try without landing lights esp. with N.E. & Scotch mist
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2. Would the Duke of Hamilton have known he was coming?
Dunno , I was born 1950 without good connections
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3. How would they have communicated to set up such a meeting?
IMHO , those with good hereditary wealth (not all of them still resident in U.K. BUT it is known some still took vacations there) would still have good access to such as Portugal or Spain , I suppose this raises the question - why did Hess fly to Scotland , he could have used a number of means to get to Portugal or Spain - or other suitable places. I suppose he was mad to fly to Scotland..
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4. Since the Bf110 was a 2 seater fighter, what was the role of the second crew member and could the plane be comptently flown by one person?
Apparently , after being turned away by other German manufacturers - Wilhelm Emil "Willy" Messerschmitt , allocated the plane that crashed (or landed in a unfortunate manner) in Scotland and made whatever modifications that Hess requested, test flights being made over several months.
"4. Since the Bf110 was a 2 seater fighter, what was the role of the second crew member and could the plane be comptently flown by one person?"
Further to your Question #4 above, FordPrefect, I don't know what the second crew member of the Bf110 was responsible for, but the second crew member of the Canadian CF-100, two-crew fighter, was responsible for the guns and rockets firing and radar control. CF-100 was built during the early fifties.
"4. Since the Bf110 was a 2 seater fighter, what was the role of the second crew member and could the plane be comptently flown by one person?"
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I suppose the Bf110 crew could scramble about in the cockpit.
I don't know but a bit of research on the internet may soon determine (so many role , so many Mk. - as with British WW2 aircraft). As we know the Germans were very cleaver at hiding their beam following electronics amongs the standard radio coms. I would think the wreckage was well plotted before any experts had a good examination. From all I have read from the better German sources - the Hess Bf110 was adapted for a single person - so Hess would have been well stressed with piloting,navigation, moving fuel around. The Blenheim Nightfighter version was at a bit of a disadvantage as the Observer/ radar expert was in his own cab at the rear of the pilot (he would also have the Gunner badge) There would also be a Gunner . The Beufighter Nightfighter had a crew of two, IIRC this would be pilot & Navigator / radar expert who was right next to the pilot. The Navigator would be trained in night emergency / fogged up landing procedures and would have had some early pilot training. I would expect the Luftwaffe would have had similar "multi-skilling" training - depending on requirements.
My understanding is that Hess , dived from over the North Sea to come in low and fast to get under the radar, I suppose he would know there would be fighter patrols further south over Tyneside/Wearside , also approaching Clyde-side - there would be standing patrols. Apparently caught out at his turning point over the North Sea (too light as the research he used was in central european time) - he stooged for abt. 1 hour , was a weather expert having received the very latest (from Condor over the Atlantic) German weather reports for a long period prior The Observer Corp hearing / sighting times are in the public domain and apparently the, B f 110 crashed at 23.09 hours. What sort of ambient light do you expect at 11 pm on a May summer evening ? How well were the exhaust stubs shielded against being seen from a British nightfighter, I once read that German nightime bombing losses around May 1941 were only 2% (that was in a bomber stream of hundreds of aircraft). IMHO , he had worked to a very tight landing window , ran out of fuel circling where he expected / was assured would be landing lights. To dawdle until bailing out time - he had never considered the possibility of landing on any of the many RAF landing fields that he would have marked on his map - quite the opposite. To set out on such a trip , he must have trusted somebody at the Scottish end - otherwise he was totally mad
I hope I have not stirred up a hornet's nest. Anyway to try and answer some of the comments:-
Bf 110C had a threeman crew for what is now known as fighter bomber duty and a two man crew for fighter escort duty. Pilot/radio operator navigator/rear gunner for the FB duty Pilot/rear gunner for FE duty Like all similar two engined aircraft at that time the 110 was originally designed as a fighter but the spitfire/hurricane/109 singe seater types quicky made it obsolete as a fighter. Later models such as the Mosquito and P38 Lightning excelled in the FB/F duties in certain situations. So Hess was quite capable to fly alone in daylight perhaps using a radio beam as his track shows him flying straight towards Lanarkshire but overshooting and evenually circling Ardrossen to turn back towards the Clyde. Which happens to be the way that most of the bombers flew for the Clydebankraids! Hess was clearly tracked most of the way and evenually was lost still heading towards Glasgow, so one can assume to flew lower to map read better in the fading light from the East and to follow the Clyde South. In May at that latitude, there is a gloaming and with good clear weather, not unusual to last past 20.00hrs. but difficult to fly Eastwards. In regard to nightfighters, I doubt whether there were any in Scotland at that time, and even in the South they were very ineffective until suitable airborne radar operations were estabished. The airfield at Hamilton's probably did not have runway lights and even if it did I doubt Hess would have planned a night landing in a 110. So best senario is, that he got lost , ran out of daylight/ fuel and managed somehow to parachute at a relative low altitude. RAF records show that they knew the 110 had no chance to escape and deliberatly did not attempt to shoot it down. There is a record that initially, a Defient was vectored to intercept, then the 602 Spits then they were relieved by Hurricanes who probably had difficulty in the fading light as well. In regard to peace overtures between Britain and Germany try to find reading material on the political scene of the times but be warned-very dry reading! Got to go the rugby has started!
Right - my only interest is for the "Real Truth" of this Hess flight to Scotland is determined , in particular the preparations needed for the aircraft to land , re-fuel and take-off again as I doubt he had no intention to stay unless he was in fact mad (I do not rule out the possibility of having high intelligence but lacking in all common sence) or just mad in a certain way. Unfortunately everything is loaded with official propaganda and conspiracy theories, not helped my most people being involved now dead. Bystanders - consider anthing as heresay.
I suppose Hess could have easy just tagged on to a German bomber stream that was attacking Clyde-side , however I understand these left bases on French soil and travelled up the Irish Sea ?
For research , we are left only with the technical aspects of aircraft involved at the time-line, RAF facilities available in Northern England and Scotland. Ground , ground-mobile and aircraft radar. Luftwaffe raid procedures & Observer Corp records can probably be considered 98% accurate. To previously gather all this info. from books, check for accurace , double-double check was time consuming and expensive. Now with the aid of Forums and several participants in a thread, Google search - this is convenient, quick and at low cost
I now see this thread further developing as the de facto source of sound info. on the Hess flight , the best discussion of the political aspects of the flight to Scotland will always be conjecture. Possibly Hess was fooled by a intelligence agency plot, did they expect it to work and made good landing preparations or not ? To entrap the aircraft a distance where it runs out of fuel with a good possibility of crew parachuting to their death , in particular a person of Hess status makes no sence to me
This is what makes the 'Hess' incident interesting. The theory that he was enticed to try and and make a truce with Britain via the British secret service has some weight considering the many successes they had during WW2. Otherwise he was a bit of a fool which some of his nazi mates were after a while. You have to stay with the facts first before exploring the possibilities of overt operations. For the record, the Northern raids were from from the Northern European occupied bases, I don't think any raids came up the Irish Sea mainly due to the range/navigation and like the Armada the high risk of being able to return in sufficent numbers to survive. Hess's flight was during daylight/evening, the bomber raids on Clydebank were at night as by that time the nazi daylight raids were beaten. Hess expected VIP treatment and acceptance of his peace proposals. A person arriving on spec would normally have behaved differently. In the political scene, Britain was on is knees, USA was divided on supporting Britain, Germany wanted to destroy Russia, Japan was annoyed with USA sanctions and Churchill was still fighting hie homeland enemies. There are additional covert theories involving the Duke of Kent, who was known to favour the Germans, and his evenual demise in a Sunderlend crash. Also, Hess was kept long past all the others in captivity who had prolonged the war, why?
The Me-110 was a 'Zerstorer' (heavy fighter) which became obsolete in that role, though it served well as a night fighter and as ground attack in North Africa. The concept wasn't totally dropped by the Luftwaffe though as Messerchmitt had another try with the Me-210, which failed due to various technical problems and was superseded by the similiar looking 410. By this time it was too late in the war to have much impact.
I need to go to the library to try and find a book I read over 1 year ago, certain it mentioned German night intruders travelling up the Irish Sea to Scotland.
The book was about Boulton Paul Defiants , IIRC somewhere based in Cheshire , and protecting the North West inc. Manchester. Details of barriage ballons, went into great detail about beacons, box flying & avoidance of AA ground-fire.
Just trawled through the Pen & Sword list of books - can't find it so not one of theirs.
Possibly mentioned about German navigation & beam flying etc.
Probably very similar operations around Clyde-side
,whether they approached from the East or took advantage of neutral Ireland’s street lights to guide them via the Irish Sea to their intended targets.
Flosue, I find it hard to believe that Hess was enticed by the British secret service into making an effort to bring about a truce with Britain. There was never any doubt Hitler wanted peace with Britain. Even before the war started he stated categorically that he had no wish to go to war against Britain and France. Furthermore, after the 1940 defeat of Britain's B.E,F. in North West Europe he offered peace terms which were very reasonable compared to the post WWI Treaty of Versailles. We might note too for whatever sigbificance it might have, that destroying Britain was not a feature in Mein Kampf.
Clearly, there existed a very strong motive for the Hess flight to Scotland. The idea of peace with the U.K. was not something to which Hess himself was averse, and Hess proved quite clearly that his confidence regarding a successful undertaking of the very dangerous solo flight to Scotland was not misplaced.
One is tempted also, to ask oneself why the British Secret Service would try to lure Hess to Britain. I mean, how much of a contribution to Britain winning the war would the captivity of Hess make... not, as History proved, a sausage! If this idea was on the plate of the British Secret Service, then I believe it was a waste of time.
The Book "The Loneliest Man in the World" by Hess' one time gaoler Eugene K. Bird is probably the best informed writing on Rudolph's motivations for his flight to Scotland. It's very much worth a read as the author illegally interviewed interviewed the one time Deputy Fuhrer while he was the warden. I bought the book from an auction site and it came unexpectedly with a bag a news clipping from over many years about Hess, his flight and time in Spandau.
,whether they approached from the East or took advantage of neutral Ireland’s street lights to guide them via the Irish Sea to their intended targets.
Hi, It is true that Liverpool raids were assisted by the Dublin lights but I have not been able to verify any raids flying North to Scotland up the Irish Sea. The range, lack of radio beams,fighter bases in Wales, Nothern Ireland, and Ayrshire would have been very serious deterents to such a flight. In regard to nightfighters, as i have already stated, they were very primative at that time and only became somewhat effective long after the blitz and were mainly stationed in the South East. Only two German bombers were shot down during the Clydebank raids by aircraft, none by AA, although as usual there were probably greater losses by engine failure etc. Of interest, the Germans actually bombed Dublin in error on the 31 May 41, which just shows how difficult it was to accurately identify a target, never mind intercept an single aircraft in cloud/rain etc with a radar cluttered up with false echoes as the early A1 sets often were. Far more British nightfighters were lost than Germans due to weather/landing etc. I used to have a map of the German radio beam stations but it has got lost , from memory most of the beams originated from Denmark down to the French channel coast and the Brits soon found out ways to 'bend' them. There used to be some good books on the technical radio/radar war. One of the key items was the magnaton valve and actually the boffins had to take hospital x-ray machines as a temporary solution to fight the radio beams. What you must remember is that the normal weather conditions play a big part in trying to attain effective bombing, and in fact both the German and Allied airforce records evenually showed how ineffective the early bombing was with the high cost in crew losses. But all this really has nothing to do with Hess as he flew across the North Sea direct to Lanarkshire in daylight!
There is a map often used in books etc. + web-sites that shows the Hess flight to Scotland (don't know the origins) , with OC times for sound & visual contact & how he supposedly circled over Clyde-side , Ayreshire etc. that was covered with RAF stations & emergency landing grounds , decoys etc. Also did similar over Farne islands & Northumberland coast area that was also well manned by RAF with similar bases.
I wonder if anyone knows of an online video of the interview with ploughman David McLean - this being the interview he gave to the media just after the Hess incident.
This was made available through an online archive run by The Scotsman, but I see that in keeping with what appears to an industry standard 'dirty trick' the site has been re-organised, and all you got when visiting the former web address for this video is a standard page informing you that "The page you are accessing no longer exists and has been moved. Please use the search option to find it."
Or some such nonsense - because I have yet to find a 'lost' page when following that advice, and the search is a waste of time.
They (all of them) should be more honest, and just say they have deleted or removed the pages.
I see the old link to the McLean video now lands on a new 'lifestyle/heritage' page - but a search still doesn't bring up the desired item.
This was the full interview filmed at the time, I think it might even have been mentioned earlier in this thread too, and was a useful reference to see the faces of the people as they gave their accounts at the time of the incident.
It's obviously a handy thing to be able to refer to, so if anyone does come across it, or has a working link, a nod would be appreciated so we can restore it.
It is not a portal for introducing modern-day politics, and will simply be removed if this happens.
I am not aware of introducing any political aspects to this thread. Apologies if there were. However, in regard to the Hess incident, either it was the simple act of a deranged man or a part of a complicated wartime covert operation. There is more than a little evidence of the latter. Even now, after all these years from the war's end, there are new books etc. appearing almost every month, based on released secret files, personnal diaries and old warriors who find the need to recite their memories. One day the Hess truth will out. In many cases, these new revelations have completely contradicted earlier myths or shown how fragile the truth can be in the wrong hands. It never fails to amaze me to learn how a minor act can have a major influence on history and even in one's life. Hess's story is full of contradictions, did he parachute or crash land, who really captured him, did Hitler discuss the trip with him, did his plane have bullet holes in the fusalage as has been reported, why was he kept in captivity far longer than others of greater guilt and so on. Today, we have the magic of the WWW and other modern tools yet even we are not always party to the whole truth.
2. On the search page , typed the single word HESS & scrolled down to find it , I think this is the one you mean ?
Titled :-
Rudolf Hess's plane crashes in Scotland
SLATE INFORMATION: Further Views on the Topic of Rudolf Hess
SCOTLAND: Dungavel: EXT
AEROPLANES GERMAN M. E. 110 wreckage used by Hess
DUNGAVIL CASTLE. (Home of Duke of Hamilton). Hess's ...
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The interview voice of David McLean is not heavily stilted with speach gaps where he is clearly reading (with difficulty) from prompting boards on a similar newsreel. Also the background photography oin the farm is different.
I am not aware of introducing any political aspects to this thread. Apologies if there were. However, in regard to the Hess incident, either it was the simple act of a deranged man or a part of a complicated wartime covert operation. There is more than a little evidence of the latter. Even now, after all these years from the war's end, there are new books etc. appearing almost every month, based on released secret files, personnal diaries and old warriors who find the need to recite their memories. One day the Hess truth will out. In many cases, these new revelations have completely contradicted earlier myths or shown how fragile the truth can be in the wrong hands. It never fails to amaze me to learn how a minor act can have a major influence on history and even in one's life. Hess's story is full of contradictions, did he parachute or crash land, who really captured him, did Hitler discuss the trip with him, did his plane have bullet holes in the fusalage as has been reported, why was he kept in captivity far longer than others of greater guilt and so on. Today, we have the magic of the WWW and other modern tools yet even we are not always party to the whole truth.
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It was a post of mine that was banished, I had made comments about the truth of words spoken by a politician of late drawing comparison to the words spoken by politicians in history. Subject involving SIS (Security Intelligence Services) MI5 & MI6 (don't believe anything)
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