Yes, I know, we've already hammered this topic right left and centre, but there is some information from the German news-media "Spiegel online International." (web address shown above) which might still be of some interest. I found the following extracts interesting:
"Until now, historians had assumed that Hitler's deputy was acting on his own. "Hess acted without Hitler's knowledge, but in the deep (if confused) belief that he was carrying out his wishes," British author Ian Kershaw wrote in his 2008 book, "Hitler: A Biography". But now a previously unpublished document is casting Hess's notorious one-way trip in a new light: A 28-page, handwritten report that historian Matthias Uhl of the German Historical Institute Moscow discovered in the State Archive of the Russian Federation.
The document was written in February 1948 by a man who was closely associated with Hess: his adjutant Karlheinz Pintsch, a Soviet war prisoner from 1945 to 1955. Pintsch, a businessman who joined the Nazi Party early on, had accompanied Hess to the airfield. The next day he had Hitler's aides wake up the Führer at his mountain retreat in Obersalzberg to give him a letter. According to eyewitnesses, the letter began with the words: "My Führer, when you receive this letter I shall be in England."
Contrary to the prevailing view, Hitler, according to the Pintsch account, was not furious in the least when he received the news. "Hitler calmly listened to my report and dismissed me without comment," Pintsch writes. The Führer had known about Hess's flight for a while, the adjutant claims in his report, because Berlin had also been negotiating with London for some time. The flight, Pintsch writes, occurred 'by prior arrangement with the English.'. Hess's mission, he adds, was to 'use all means at his disposal to achieve, if not a German military alliance with England against Russia, at least the neutralization of England.' "
The Pintsch account begins to make a little more sense
Quoted Text
But Pintsch wrote the statement in 1948 when still a prisoner of war in the Soviet Union and may have used his claims as a means of attaining his freedom.
With the start of the Cold War it could have been possible that the German knew that any information that hinted at secret British dealings with Nazi Germany would have been welcomed by the suspicious and neurotic Josef Stalin.
Yes Apollo, since Pintsch wrote the statement in 1948 when still a prisoner of war in the Soviet Union he may well have used his claims as a means of attaining his freedom (didn't do him much good apparently... wasn't realeased until 1955!), but just as likely it could have been the truth. Mathew Day, the Telegraph reporter refers to Stalin as "neurotic Josef Stalin". What I wonder is this supposed to tell us about Pintsch's 28-Page statement... render it less believable perhaps? I don't think Stalin was any more neurotic than the other war leaders. We'll just file Pinch's statement with all the other controversial Hess material.
RUDOLF Hess, whose flight to Scotland in 1941 became one of the most bizarre incidents of the Second World War, planned to build a baronial home in Scotland in the event of Germany's victory. The deputy Fuhrer, who parachuted into Renfrewshire in May 1941 in a bid to negotiate Britain's surrender with the Duke of Hamilton, drew up plans for the house, which was to have a dining room capable of seating 170 people, while he was held captive ADVERTISEMENT at "Camp Z", a country house outside London in 1941.
Hess's plans for his Scottish retreat are revealed in a new book, Camp Z: The Secret Life Of Rudolf Hess, by Stephen McGinty, which details the year the Nazi leader spent at Mytchett Place, a country house near Aldershot, as MI6 tried to uncover his secrets.
He discussed his plans with Lieutenant William Malone, a member of the Scots Guards who were responsible for guarding him during the summer of 1941. As well as planning a rural retreat in Scotland, Hess, who became increasingly paranoid and mentally ill, requested that he be moved from Mytchett Place in England back to Scotland so that he could go cycling.
Lieutenant Colonel Malcolm Scott, the commandant, noted in the diary for Camp Z: "He asks that he may be transferred to Scotland where he could roam over the moors and indulge in his favourite pastime of cycling."
You have it right Apollo: "He [Hess] may have been a little nutty, but he had good taste". I assume you are speaking here about Hess asking to be transferred to Scotland so that he could indulge in his favourite pastime of cycling. I don't see this as something confirming his nuttyness...proves beyond a doubt that there was nothing wrong with this man's mental health.
Never heard this story before. The Hess saga acquires more and more interesting stuff as the years move on, even if a bit bizarre, and leads one to ponder what the next book will tell us about Nazi Germany's Deputy Führer.
I really don't wish to sound anti-semitic, but I notice in that BBC article that it mentions a spokesperson for a Jewish group. It's getting increasingly tiresome that it seems the entire war is being hijacked especially considering there were many other groups targetted by the Nazis. However, if you point this out, some extremists say you must be a Nazi sympathiser, something I most certainly am not.
It's getting increasingly tiresome that it seems the entire war is being hijacked especially considering there were many other groups targetted by the Nazis.
I noticed this too Jade. The only part with which I disagree, is the tense of your statement "...the entire war is being hijacked..."... This should be written in the past tense: "...the entire war has been hijacked...".
Well I think I sympathise with the Jewish group here. If your family had been murdered in the concentration camps, and your district was being invaded by thugs who would like to repeat that process, you might see things differently.
Well I think I sympathise with the Jewish group here. If your family had been murdered in the concentration camps, and your district was being invaded by thugs who would like to repeat that process, you might see things differently.
That may well be WM, but I think Jade's point was entirely with respect to the history of WWII and had nothing at all to do with the Nazi persecution of the Jews. Indeed, I believe your comment itself exactly underlines the hijacking about which Jade expressed his concern.
Back on the topic of Rudolph Hess, the BBC International news provides an article today about the exhumation of the Hess bones, written by a Thomas Doerfler at the University of Goettingen in Germany. Nothing new in it at all, but it brings to light once again the point made earlier about inaccuracies in media reporting or inaccuracies made by should-have-known-better historians.
This fellow starts off by claiming "Hess owes his ambiguous fame to the circumstances of his death". I do not believe this is true. I believe his "ambiguous fame" could be attributed to a lot more signicant things in his life than this. Hey, he didn't get a front row seat at Nuremberg because he was a suicide candidate! I admit the wording may be ambiguous because of translation and the defenders of the article may claim Doerfler was speaking only with respect to the "right-wingers of all stripes"; but if so, he should have made his meaning clearer. Anyway, there it is in the BBC article, the reason for Hess's "ambiguous fame".
Doerfler goes on to tell us that: " Britain had started World War II to destroy Germany, and Hess was captured in Scotland to crush the peaceful intentions of Nazi Germany.".
This is simply not true! Britain did not start World War II to destroy Germany. Britain went to war because Germany would not withdraw its troops after invading Poland. And furthermore, Hess was not captured in Scotland, he flew to Scotland on his own free will... he went voluntarily (we think). Okay, it's picky, picky stuff, but from an Historian one would expect something better. Again, if this stems from translation and is meant to be a reflection of what the right-wing nuts are supposed to believe, then Doerfler has not 'reflected' it clearly.
One just has to mention the headline used by the BBC: "Grave concern"
I would have to say that read in context, as opposed to the cherry-picked pieces offered by Duguld (that not meant in negatively critical way - you have to quote pieces, but some articles need context more than others), Doerfler's points make more sense than when seen or considered in isolation.
I don't say that because I particularly agree with what he says, and his style is certainly (in my opinion) pitched a little to far above the average reader's ability to interpret his points accurately - as an example, take the "ambiguous fame" the Duguld also included.
Really - what does he mean by by this?
Fame is either fame, or it is not, in which case it is obscurity.
I'd probably go with Duguld and his mention of translation - if this was the case and the gent does not have English as one of his languages - and take it he means notoriety.
Maybe.
After reading the whole article, I'm left feeling a little bit wanting, and wondering just what it was really all about, as I reached the end feeling nothing had really been said bar the obvious, and if it had been a third as long, and merely reported the removal of the grave, and the putting out-of-joint of the noses of the neo-Nazis, then it would have sufficed.
Stealing from Duguld again the (article's) meaning is not clear.
It seem like a little opportunistic ramble, much like the case he seems to be making for some special significance about the date, as if some plan had been hatched to do this on the anniversary of the flight to Scotland.
The real reason for the timing of the grave's removal.
This is when the council expects the neo-Nazis in town - despite the ban on their gathering since 2005 - and someone just threw their arms up a few weeks ago when they saw it come round again and said "For god's sake, let's end this and their reason for descending on us."
Oops, Dugald misinterpreted Thomas Doerfler's article... yes indeed! He could have deleted his comments on the article, but chose rather to leave them.
Nah Apollo, my admission of misinterpretation had nothing to do with your post. I had written about my misinterpretation before reading your post. By the time i carried my admission from Wordpro to ScSco you had posted... take a look at the times and you will see there is only about 5 minutes separation.
My misunderstanding was based on not realising Thomas Doerfler's article was as seen through the eyes of one of the neo-Nazis he was criticising.
By the way , the date aspect has to do with the attempted assassination of Hitler and not Hess' landing in Scotland.
I don't for one minute believe the 10-year old "witness", but I do believe the bit about Hess being taken out of his plane by Corporal Jack McKenzie. The reason being that he was my Grandfather and often got really annoyed at the "parachute" story that was always trotted out.
There was a Signals unit based at Eaglesham House, of which my Grandfather was a part and he was on guard the night Hess' plane landed in the field. The Signals had tracked the ME-110 and realised that it had passed the point of no return as it crossed onto the British Mainland, flying over somewhere round Berwick. They had been tracking it for some time, but at that point, the technology that allowed them to do so was classified, so no one could know. The guns over Glasgow were ordered not to fire on the plane, as they wanted to see what it was up to.
It landed with some damage (but not being completely wrecked- the plane was pretty much in one piece, but not airworthy by any means) and in the landing Hess broke his ankle. My grandfather and two other corporals of the guard went to investigate and helped "Horn" out of the aircraft. He was then taken to Floors Farm, it being closer than Eaglesham House, and also not military (secret Signals stuff, remember?) where Mr MacLean and his mother lived. He was offered tea by Mrs MacLean but declined politely.
One of the guard was sent back to Eaglesham to request transport for the prisoner. No vehicles were available, so the Home Guard were called. They duly turned up and arrested "Horn" and took him to Maryhill Barracks. The plane was scrapped, loaded on a lorry and taken to a yard where many other downed German aircraft had been dumped. When it transpired that the pilot was Hess, the plane was unearthed and taken back for the photos, hence the reason it looks completely trashed and people believed he parachuted and the plane crashed. I'm not sure if they even got all the bits out of the junk yard, and lots of bits were taken as souveniers by locals and military alike. My grandfather had a piece of the plane for many years, but it got lost in a house move or was thrown out by my grandma (she had a habit of doing things like that with stuff she thought was junk).
The reasons it's probably been left at MacLean and the Home Guard being the plucky people who arrested Hess are probably because 1) no one knew that the Signals were operating such efficient tracking from Eaglesham, 2) the Signals were armed only with pickaxe hafts. No guns. Gramdad got a gun when Hess surrendered his, but he passed it on with the prisoner when they handed him over to the Home Guard. The torch wasn't handed over and I believe it may be in Wales with the family of one of the other Signals Corporals. Finally 3) the Home Guard needed some good publicity at the time, and this was a perfect opportunity, given that it turned out to be Hitler's deputy that had been captured.
Hess kept asking to see the Duke of Hamilton. The Duke visited him in Maryhill (I think) and spent half an hour talking to Hess with no one else there, so no one other than those two know what was spoken about. I wonder if that had anything to do with the life sentence in Spandau (purely my own thoughts about the sentence and not to be taken too seriously. The bit about Hess and the Duke is true though)
I do have bits and pieces of paperwork relating to this incident kicking about in a box somewhere, but a recent house move means I can't put my hands on it right now. I really hope that in 6 years time, when the paperwork is released, my grandfather is vindicated and the Signals get the recognition they deserve for the arrest of Rudolph Hess.
Interesting information, and I suspect it will keep one or two of our members busy over the long winter nights.
As noted, the wait for 2017, and the release of the papers still under seal at the National Archives is now fast approaching - but I can't help but feel it will do little more than when the bulk of the material therein was released early, in 1992, by then Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd. Expectations seem to be that the info will relate to the Duke of Hamilton, but this is, of course only speculation.
Have you seen our page, where an attempt has been made to summarise the least inconsistent public info: Rudolf Hess Flight
We also have a fair amount of articles collected that are more controversial, but these are not made available for public viewing, only for our own reference when checking new stories.
The Admin can also be contacted privately, and respects the confidentiality of any information discussed under such exchanges. Only information released by the owner ever appears within our Wiki pages.
I read the Wiki page, which is why I signed up here just to see if there was any corroborating info on the forums. I will be really interested to see if any other members can add anything to the story.
Part of the bundle of paperwork collected mostly by my father is a sketch of how Hess' plane was found, before it was scrapped and taken away and there are a few other interesting nuggets in there, including the names of the other two corporals that were with my Gramdad that night. I shall see what I can dig up.
If anyone does have anything of interest that they don't wish to put on the forum, I would be quite happy to receive mails.
Myths arise, rural as well as urban. A former colleague of mine, who was from that area, said that the local legend is that Hess landed by parachute and was found wandering round by a loacla farmer, and the following conversation arose: "Who are you?" "I am Rodolf Hess, The Deputy Fuhrer of Deutschland." "Deputy Fuhrer my a**e, get aff ma grun!" I suspect the story is apocryphal and may have been embellished with the telling!
I wonder if anyone knows of an online video of the interview with ploughman David McLean - this being the interview he gave to the media just after the Hess incident.
This was made available through an online archive run by The Scotsman, but I see that in keeping with what appears to an industry standard 'dirty trick' the site has been re-organised, and all you got when visiting the former web address for this video is a standard page informing you that "The page you are accessing no longer exists and has been moved. Please use the search option to find it."
Or some such nonsense - because I have yet to find a 'lost' page when following that advice, and the search is a waste of time.
They (all of them) should be more honest, and just say they have deleted or removed the pages.
I see the old link to the McLean video now lands on a new 'lifestyle/heritage' page - but a search still doesn't bring up the desired item.
This was the full interview filmed at the time, I think it might even have been mentioned earlier in this thread too, and was a useful reference to see the faces of the people as they gave their accounts at the time of the incident.
It's obviously a handy thing to be able to refer to, so if anyone does come across it, or has a working link, a nod would be appreciated so we can restore it.
This is not new - but I don't this particular item has been mentioned previously (chance find while looking for something else):
Quoted Text
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, the son of the wartime Duke of Hamilton, who wrote the book The Truth About Rudolf Hess, recently uncovered previously hidden documents about the case. He claims his findings reveal that neither MI5, the British security service, nor the Duke had any interest in or knowledge of peace negotiations with the Germans.
The Secret Services, Lord James says, did consider using his father as a double agent after intercepting a letter intended for the Duke sent via an intermediary by Albrecht Haushofer, one of Hess's close advisers. The letter suggested that the Duke and Hess should meet in Portugal to discuss peace but the plan was thought too dangerous.
"The whole thing was a great shock to my father when it emerged. In fact he wrote at the time that he hoped the whole affair would be treated as a four-day wonder. I think he was being a bit optimistic," says Lord James.
"It was a purely unauthorised mission. Hitler did not know about it and was furious when he found out, that is clear from the papers."
Lord James, an MSP for the Lothians, said the claims that his father had been a Nazi sympathiser had not been hurtful to the family but adds: "I was irritated that the government was suppressing documents which I thought was neither necessary nor desirable. As a result, conspiracy theories grew up when the British had such a good story to tell."
He claims his research knocks firmly on the head the theory that Hess was lured here as part of a plot by British Intelligence to engage in peace negotiations. He also clears the name of his father who, even the most ardent theorists agree, was an "unwilling victim" in the whole saga.
It's not any sort of 'new' or 'sensational' story - rather, it's more notable for the categoric statements made by Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, the son of the wartime Duke of Hamilton, and his dismissal of most of the others, which are are all arguably more in the myth and conspiracy categories than his.
Although the Hess flight is probably later - but only a little, I think - than the documentary I have in mind, and just saw recently, I was slightly surprised to hear said that early on in World War II, Hitler would have been quite content to have had a negotiated peace with the British, and a nation he considered suitably close to Germany that he did not actually want to fight and conquer.
The programme referred to a number of German staff members who were at least involved in some sort of preparations for negotiating peace with Britain, and the names given were ones I had never heard of (so can't remember any of them). Unfortunately, I only started watching the series I think this was in (Secrets of War, a sort of American World at War narrated by Charlton Heston), and missed many early episodes and their repeats - maybe next time
I'll have to try and remember to watch out for this next time the series appears.
I hadn't expected it to be as good as it has turned out to be, but it has the advantage of post-dating WaW by some twenty years, so has access to information that was still classified when WaW was made, so is able to carry on where it left of in some cases.
Of course there is something fishy being witheld , I have read much in many books about this flight.
I am aware of the time change that evening & thus quoted times can be in error , however one should be able to believe official logged times.
It is fair to assume that Ottercops Moss would have locked on to him when he was well out above the North Sea , Kenton Bar would have all the info. to hand.
If you check on AA Route planner , taking their guestimate of the distance from Newcastle-on-Tyne (well short of the coast) , then the distance to Glasgow is 150 miles (and this is travelling West then turning North at Carlisle).
A Messerschmitt Bf 110 would be capable of 350 mph , so at half throttle he is going to complete that distance in well under half hour (the often quoted time over land before bale out / crash landing at the often quoted time of just after 11pm).
However he approached the coast further north than Tyneside , apparently the Farne Islands and his flight plan was more or less direct until he got lost and decided to save his skin rather be involved in a uncontrolled crash or bale out not of his choice.
I have read in a few official own accounts / statements and that he was proud that at the age of almost 50 years managed to bale.
This leaves more doubts with this claim that he crash landed and did not bale. However - how can you believe anything governmental official when they are still witholding certain facts after 70 years
Of course there is something fishy being witheld , I have read much in many books about this flight.
I am aware of the time change that evening & thus quoted times can be in error , however one should be able to believe official logged times.
It is fair to assume that Ottercops Moss would have locked on to him when he was well out above the North Sea , Kenton Bar would have all the info. to hand.
If you check on AA Route planner , taking their guestimate of the distance from Newcastle-on-Tyne (well short of the coast) , then the distance to Glasgow is 150 miles (and this is travelling West then turning North at Carlisle).
A Messerschmitt Bf 110 would be capable of 350 mph , so at half throttle he is going to complete that distance in well under half hour (the often quoted time over land before bale out / crash landing at the often quoted time of just after 11pm).
However he approached the coast further north than Tyneside , apparently the Farne Islands and his flight plan was more or less direct until he got lost and decided to save his skin rather be involved in a uncontrolled crash or bale out not of his choice.
I have read in a few official own accounts / statements and that he was proud that at the age of almost 50 years managed to bale.
This leaves more doubts with this claim that he crash landed and did not bale. However - how can you believe anything governmental official when they are still witholding certain facts after 70 years
Does anyone have access to flight specs for wartime aircraft?
I can find design specs online with no bother, but information for pilots and flying the things seems rather sparse.
I am currently failing to locate an online source for the take-off and landing requirements for some aircraft.
I am looking for the minimum runway lengths required to operate the Bristol Blenheim, and the Messerschmitt Bf-110.
So far, all I can find online for these (and just about anything else is the aircraft spec ie engines, power, wingspan, length etc etc, which is useless for flight planning.
Well, not useless, but when you're looking for somewhere to set down, none of that matters (since you could be coming in dead stick).
You may have to define your terms fairly carefully as in those days Aircraft Scheduled Performance was in its infancy, if indeed it had been borne! Nowadays general performance calculations for multi-engined aircraft are constructed around the power unit failure case and performance from a specific runway will take into account; as well as it's length; clearance from obstacles in the initial climb phase. In those less complex days, performance planning may have consisted of little more than a simple table of runway length vs weight or maybe just a couple of examples. Engine out performance was in may cases marginal at best and obstacle clearance advice along the lines of "turn right a bit to avoid the church spire!" Many types would have had a takeoff performance "gap" where in event of engine failure you would neither be able to stop in the distance remaining or continue the takeoff. In many cases this gap continued once airborne with insufficient directional control being available until speed was increased sufficiently but reducing power to keep straight resulting in a "negative rate of climb".
In summary, the figure you might obtain would tend to indicate the field lengths that were used to conduct operations with varying degrees of risk.
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