Quote:- 'These matters may have passed through the Duke of Hamilton's mind as he watched WAAF tellers plotting the course of the enemy raid 42J across the large multi-coloured map of northern Britain at 10.30 p.m. on Saturday, 10 May 1941. In his pre-war days as a flying enthusiast., the Duke ordered an airstrip to be constructed in the grounds of Dungavel House, near what had formerley been the ducal hunt's kennels. These had been converted into an office and maintenance buildings capable of housing several aircraft. With the coming of war the airstrip had been uprated for occasional use by the Air Training Corps, and by the late spring of 1940 Dungavel had become an emergency landing strip for aircraft unable to reach their own bases due to damage or mechanical failure. In consequence of this new role the runway had been uprated for night use by the fitting of landing lights.'
FYI- The ATC was formed on 01/02/1941, previously there was the Air Defence Cadet Corps started in 1938.The first Glider ATC School was on the 28/06/42, (SE London) and by end of 1942 there were only 14 schools. Most ATC powered flight training would have been on RAF Airfields. so it would be unusual for a private grass field to have state funds expended for ATC use only, or for lights, except perhaps for an emergency light. Although, Group Captain, The Duke of Hamilton and Brandon, was the CO of Scottish Command ATC. so maybe some strings were pulled! Grass airfields were not unusual in these days. even during the middle 60s I used to be flown from Burnaston in a DC3 (Pioneer),grass with a slight slope, and don't recall any flights being cancelled due to weather even in winter! Spitfires etc often used grass airfields although their u/c was a bit weak for any bumps.
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Yes, sorry I was a bit brusk earlier, I do in fact understand the important point you are making here.
Ref. the words :-
These had been converted into an office and maintenance buildings capable of housing several aircraft. With the coming of war the airstrip had been uprated for occasional use by the Air Training Corps
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The Air Training Corps , would not just be gliders - powered flight also , (a specialist Glider School apparently came to Dungavel landing field much later in the war. I don't know if they were launched using a vehicle , static winch or power aircraft - possibly all three methods ? (a chopped Standard Beaverette , seemed to be used for line recovery - but I doubt if always used for glider recovery back to launch).
Obviously the point you are getting at is that the Air TRAINING Corps , would never consider using a very small area of field for take-off or landing power trainer aircraft or gliders - thus commonsence dictates that the information supplied by the hamilton estate is misleading
All I did was to go to Photobucket and do a search for "Hess". They appear to be somewhere in one of your Photobucket albums somewhere. I lose pictures regularly.
Out of all the books on the Hess flight to Scotland, IMHO - the most important is the book :-
Rudolf Hess : The Uninvited Envoy by James Leasor . This is on account of the fact that it is quite early (1962) and his acknowledgements include many people who were then alive who were involved in the flight in one way or another. Regarding the actual flight - this does involve Frau Ilse Hess , therefore her own book Rudolf Hess : Prisoner of Peace is credited. Most of us are aware of the official censorship involved between the authorities on the correspondence of Rudolf & Ilse Hess , also the reasons why Rudolf witheld information.
Now the book by Ilse Hess will be the earliest published that covered the flight (I understand the original German book was translated by Meyrick Booth Ph.D for the English version published 1954). The book foreword is by Air Commodore G.S. Oddie D.F.C ., A.F.C. so I assume he proof read the original manuscript.
Page 17.
He criticized, with a frown, the too limited range of the machine, much to the displeasure of Messerschmitt who, however allowed himself thus to be tricked into fitting two auxiliary tanks of 700 litres in the wings !
(NB - - IN the wings)
Ilse Hess would know suficient of the technical aspects , difference of wing tanks and wing mounted drop tanks. Possibly this came over badly at the translation stage ?
Page 19. There is mention of Hess having flown quite alone. On account of the Ottercops Moss early detection of 3 aircraft and other unique evidence (only seen in the book Hess: The British Conspiracy by John Haris & M.J. Trow) - Observer Map of The Night Raid 42 + Raid 42J. I suspect the time spent holding over the North Sea was for a meeting of escort Bf 110 from Norway , probably he did have a fighter escort from the continent as a first escort relay.
As this book is quite rare / expensive , and 60 years old - I doubt if there is any copyright problem if I show the odd page here
All I did was to go to Photobucket and do a search for "Hess". They appear to be somewhere in one of your Photobucket albums somewhere. I lose pictures regularly.
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Most strange - thanks , possibly not a conspiracy , more a IT hitch
Did Hess have his own 'personal' 110 or did he just take one frm an airfield? One thing to bear in mind if one was stripped down to the bare minimum like reducing armour stripping out the gunners seat, etc was that every bit of saved weight would help with the range.
In a nutshell - the BF 110 Hess flew to Scotland was povided for the usage of Hess only, it was as a rule prepared and test flown by Augsburg staff.
Probably the best info. is quoted on Page 71 of the 1962 book by James Leasor , Rudolf Hess, The uninvited Envoy.
This is referenced 1. at the bottom of the page - Hitlers Pilot, Lt. Gen. Hans Baur, Frederic Muller .. Hans Baur was Chief Pilot for Adolf Hitler and apparently they were friends - so you can't get better than that.
This relates to when Hess approached Prof. Messerschmitt.
The last sentence of the para. :-
Now for one thing, Hess was Deputy Fuhrer, and for another he might well have a special mission, so Messerschmitt let him have his way.
I had better photograph a page or two on this , because this page 71 also states :-
Messerschmitt fitted two tanks, each of 700 litres capacity, INTO the wings.
There is no doubt that the Bf 110 used for the flight to Scotland was a total one-off, it does not fall into any of the production marks , it was not a pre-pro. The early 900 litre wing drop tanks, early versions were plywood but later versions were plywood/metal composites.
Hess , he did consider this aircraft as a unique experimental , certainly it was because no others were built like it - therefore it is even arguable on the suffix letters/numerals.
He used it for several months , about 20 flights (IIRC the longest about 4 hours). There is talk that it was used for state flag waving to such as Switzerland ?
Hess had a few positions , Stellvertreter and "Reichsminister without Portfolio" amongs others , in other words a roving commission to be involved with what he wished. Certainly - the factory believed this was for saving time and increase in the deputy security - on state duty travelling to any conquered territories (flight on national service) , any friendly countries within range. And I suppose that included his hobby of flying for a "form of recreation".
Messerschmitt , I suppose to reduce responsibility on his head, convinced Hess against a single engine fighter , a twin-engine having redundancy.
In fact there is nothing unorthodax about this for senior people , because for all the same reasons :-
Air Chief Marshal Sir James Milne Robb GCB, KBE, DSO, DFC, AFC, RAF
(of the Robb Department Store family of Hexham)
- he had his own Supermarine Spitfire, IIRC , painted purple and unarmed
During WW2 (in particular during mid-1941 or exactly 10/5/1941) - were any Lighthouses still lit in Britain in spite of the blackout ?
If so was there one or more in the area of Troon, Scotland and Holy Island , off Northumberland coast being used. So we would be talking about such as Coquet Island, Guile Point (east column) , Farne Islands, Sea Houses, Bamburgh etc.
This is because of the page 78 of the James Leasor book Rudolf Hess The Uninvited Envoy . 1962 (I understand Leasor was a journalist put up to write this book by Lord Beaverbrook)..
Pintsch interupted him. How will you know when you reach Holy Island ? he asked. It's only a tiny dot on the map. It'll be dark when you reach there. Exactly, Pintsch, it will be dark , or nearly dark. And that's how I will know when I'm there, because as you see it has a lighthouse. This light is one of the very few that are still lit in Britain at night in spite of the blackout. Several lighthouses are still in use because they mark rocks or reefs or sandbanks. This is one of them. I'll know where I am when I see that light, and then I turn west and fly over the Cheviot hills here. When I come over the east of Scotland ther's another lighthouse I'll look for, by this place called Troon. When I see that I'll know I've passed my target, so I'll turn back on the same bearing flying as low as I can, until I see the Duke's house from the air.
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I don't think I have read this about lighthouses in any book published later than this (1962) , the only earlier book is Ilse Hess - Prisoner of Peace (23 September 1954) - I don't recall reading it in that book.
This is important - some later books claim that the flight went wrong because of navigation error and Hess did not cross the coast within a RAF Sector where he expected a safe escort to landing. If the lighthouses mentioned were in fact lit - then this means of sound navigation can not be discounted
ps. I will try and post this page up from The Uninvited Envoy later .
I think the short answer is that we do not know if any of the lights were left on during the war.
We have been told that pilots ferrying planes from the USA & Canada were given a special naval code that instructed the west coast lighthouses to come on. Given that they were mostly, if not all powered by vapourised paraffin (Kerosene) it would have taken several minutes to get them lit. This suggests that they were normally dark.
I would suggest that contact with the Northern Lighthouse Museum might give you the info for Scottish lights. Trinity House might be able to tell you about the English lights.
Personally I think it is unlikely that any were permenantly lit. The loss of the odd ship on rocks (eg SS Politican) on rocks would pale into insignificance compared to the losses from UBoats.
I have Googled around on this subject , however there is next nothing by way of info.
I did find this -
The oil-burning lantern, with some modifications, remained in use until 1941, when it was replaced by an an electric lamp. During wartime lighthouses were normally darkened and used only in special circumstances as when convoys or 'friendly' ships were expected. Electric lights, unlike oil lamps, could be switched on quickly and at short notice without prior preparation.
The author (Pete Crowther) , does seem well informed.
I am wondering , as the above is regarding shipping. In the event of a bomber attack picked up by Chain Home , did such as RAF Sector Control get on the phone to Trinity House staff and instruct them to switch off
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It seems oil lamp use was discontinued for WW2 period and very dangerous coastal situations converted to electric lamps. Obviously they were manned as look-outs and some were attacked. However the Germans seemed to value lighthouses as nav. trig points, ISTR reading that that the white was overpainted with camouflage DP ?
Incidentally, Ford, the Trooon light shines a red arc and a white arc and is an aid to entering or leaving Troon harbour. The only proper lighthouse on that stretch of coast is Turnberry, which being beside RAF Turnberry seems an unlikely candidate for staying lit.
I suppose if the oil lamps were not used during WWII then it is possible that quite low powered electric lamps might have been used. Given blackoout there would be no question of confusing a house or street light for the lighthouse.
There is mention in "A River Runs To War" of the Cloch being resplendent in its new camo paint. As I recall this remark refers to 1944 but i have no idea what colour it might have been in 1941.
Regarding the Farne Islands (the bigger rocks) , I have established there is a popular dive wreck off Crumstone , only because that lighthouse was blacked out during WW2. It seems that the main light would be the Longstone - that is the one I need to learn more about.
Hess , needed to get Herr Karlheinz Pintsch back on side after he returned to Augsburg at a previous attempt (after 4 hours Pintsch had opened his letter as instructed prior). It could be that Hess told Pintsch on the need to know basis , a load of rubbish. If Pintsch was taken in , and how could he double-check ? - then when the Russians kept breaking his fingers over a 10 year period - all they extracted was this rubbish story
However - it can not be disregarded as yet , well not on the NE coast
During the first and second World Wars, the lighthouse exhibited a light when ships were expected to pass the Inchape reef which runs for 2,000 feet across shipping routes of the Firths of Tay and Forth. It was on 27 October 1915 when the Captain of the "ARGYLL" (10,850 tons) one of the Devonshire Class Armoured Cruisers, sent out a routine signal to the Admiral Commanding the Coast of Scotland at Rosyth, requesting the Bell Rock be lit on the night of 27/28 October. The message was never passed on as the lighthouse had no radio and all messages had to be delivered by boat. Heavy seas made this impossible. The "ARGYLL" sank but fortunately there were no casualties at all in the complement of 655 men. In the Second World War the Bell Rock was machine gunned by an enemy aircraft on 31 October 1940, 30 March 1941 and on 5 April 1941. Also on 1 April 1941, one bomb was dropped which exploded about 10 yards from the base of the tower, doing no damage. No one was injured during these raids and the damage consisted (in total) of 9 bullet holes through the dome, 14 lantern panes broken, 4 lens prisms damaged, 6 red shades smashed, 1 balcony tank and balcony rail damaged and 1 astragal damaged.
Googling around , it seems there is a lighthouse on Little Cumbrae. As this seems to be the western flight turn-point of Hess , I would like to establish what the procedure was during WW2 - as this is the main approach to the Clyde , then there must have been some arrangement for using a light Likewise the main outer light for the Farne Islands - the Longstone Lighthouse ..
Is there not also a lighthouse on the southern tip of Arran as well as Holy Isle. In addition there is, or at least was, a harbour entrance lighthouse at Ardrossan.
Riveting - 10 min. off your life for a bit of historic reading . Read it in full for context , of course all stated with Parliamentary privilege >
Well - if Rudi had been shot down over Gibralter , then that would have finished off the post-war British book publishing industry
Another statement that I read recently in the Press—and presumably the Minister of Information knew of it—was that on a previous occasion, when Hess was on a diplomatic mission on behalf of the German Government in Madrid, he had telephoned to someone whom he knew in Gibraltar to inquire what would happen to him if he were to fly from Madrid to Gibraltar. Apparently, according to this report, he was told that, if he did try, he would be shot down, and for that or for some other reason he 889 evidently decided not to make the venture, and he did not arrive in Gibraltar.
My hon. Friend referred to that highly active genius, the Lord Provost of Glasgow. Some newspapers have even reported that he has had a private interview with Hess. etc. etc.
Mr. J. J. Davidson (Glasgow, Maryhill)
May I intervene a moment? First of all, with regard to this question of the Lord Provost of Glasgow, as a Glasgow Member and one of the Glasgow group, I recognise the very great work Lord Provost Dollan has done on behalf of the war effort—no one more so—and he is a personal friend of mine. I want the right hon. Gentleman and the House to understand the position of the Lord Provost. He is not only the civic leader in Glasgow, but also the Lord Lieutenant of the county, and he has been surrounded constantly, as members of the Government have not, by rumours and by stories that are raging right throughout the workers in Scotland as to the true reasons for Hess's arrival in this country. etc. etc.
I would make this plea for our civic chief in Glasgow. He has been surrounded by these difficulties, and the right hon. Member has not; the right hon. Member has not gone to meetings where groups of workers were instigated to ask questions about Hess, or to go to conferences where this question was being put about by certain sections of the community. He 918 has not had to face the difficulties of the Lord Provost of Glasgow. It is only natural that, in order to allay, as he thought, these suspicions, the Lord Provost should make a clear statement as far as he possibly could. The House must recognise that any statement he does make carries with it a certain amount of authority—the right hon. Gentleman may say that he had no authorisation from the Government to make this statement, but he is the Lord Provost of Glasgow—he is the civic chief—and he is the Lord Lieutenant of the county, and is constantly in touch with important sections of the community. etc. etc.
919 Hess did not arrive here on his own initiative. I have spoken to very experienced airmen who have flown many hundreds of hours in the present war. Every oné of them agrees that no one man could have made the flight Hess made without assistance. He had assistance, he must have had assistance. His course was one of the most difficult that could have been undertaken. It was one of the chanciest flights a man could have undertaken unless very careful preparation by experts had been made for that flight. All these stories are circulating in the country. Many people in the country are wondering what people assisted Hess, what group he had behind him, where that group were? The course of his flight, which was very accurate if he was making for the area for which he said he was making, required a thoroughly experienced airman to land where he did. All those points are being discussed. All those points are being thrown at Lord Provost Dollan. He has finally been forced to make a statement. It is up to the Government to make a definite statement, not attacking Lord Provost Dollan, but recognising the circumstances, making it clear to the people of this country, who are engaged in the war effort, that those secret negotiations of the past have gone by the board.
Mr. Sloan
Not altogether, I agree. But there are 15 Members of Parliament in Glasgow, and I am sure they are far better able to make pronouncements than is Lord Provost Dollan. Why it should be necessary for him to do these things, I cannot understand. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr Silverman) has performed a very useful service in raising this matter. I regret that he has not had any answer to his questions. Here we 921 have an individual who flies from Germany to Scotland—of all places in the world. Why Scotland? [Interruption.] I hear someone say that it is a neutral area. In any case, he flies 800 miles. He was an experienced flyer, as the hon. Member for Maryhill said, who flew a considerable distance over Scottish waters and over Scottish land, over land where there were Scottish farmers, watchers,. members of the Army and the Air Force and the Observer Corps, with all the necessary equipment, and landed within a few miles of his proposed object. We were told by a representative of the Air Ministry that from the very moment Hess baled out, a Spitfire was on his tail, but the Spitfire on his tail was Davy Maclean with his pitchfork. The common experience in Scotland is, discuss it with anybody you like, that, if Hess had been able to land and had not cracked his silly little ankle, he would have carried out his mission and would have returned to Germany without the people of Scotland knowing anything at all about it.
(I have ISTR only read about this in one of many books - I need to hunt it out)
Major Adams
I am extremely sorry to intervene, but this is something I have not understood. Why is Hess treated as a prisoner of war? I put this question quite seriously. Is he not more accurately described as an alien here without passport? Should he not be treated as a civil prisoner?
Now - the odd alien here without a passport is banged up in Dungavel
Another, but un-manned light vessel had been moored at the Otter Rock, off Port Ellen, since 1907 - Thisbeing the only 'tidal node point' on the west coast of Britain, there being no rise or fall of tides there and thetides radiating and sweeping round in an arc from its position.
Fortunately - the North Carr Lightship still survives as a floating museum , so a fair chance of finding out exactly what the WW2 light for Clyde approaces was during mid 1941. It seems the North Carr was not on station at Clyde until 1943. At least a reliable clue as to the procedures - just need detail of lighting to Clyde 10/5/1941 , probably only one of the original lights ?
Bit more info :-
1943-1945 during the war the lightship was moved to a station between the Mull of Kintyre and the Mull of Galloway to mark the entrance to the Clyde, the light was only lit, when ships were passing
East coast , I assume the Longstone lighthouse would be the one to keep lit during WW2 , I assume lighting was minimal at East coast also. The Longstone did come under Luftwaffe attack, I wonder if a lightship only was used on the east coast ?? , manned for light on / off wartime procedures.
Of course - lights no use to Hess unless he had some "arrangement" made prior for signaling , 10 to 11pm approx. on 10/5/1941
Probably the few lights being used were Lightships , easier to keep a ship under admiralty control
Scottish Lights & Trinity house would probably be under rationalized same rules so all were aware of the game :-
Light Regulations
Changes were also made in the regulation of the lights. All lights within Board jurisdiction were classified as: E (to be extinguished), L (to be left burning in the interests of shipping, having been dimmed and screened), or E+ (to be extinguished, except in certain circumstances). The Middle (Spurn) Lightship was classified as E+ and only gave out light with the approval of the Flag Officer, for either HM Ships or Merchant Ships on days which had two dark tides. Even in these cases, the lights including the riding lights (the anchor light) had to be reduced in brilliancy. All lights were returned to full brilliancy after the war and the Spurn was re-classified as R in future times of emergency which meant that it was to have reduced light power except in fog.
Fortunately - the North Carr Lightship still survives as a floating museum , so a fair chance of finding out exactly what the WW2 light for Clyde approaces was during mid 1941. It seems the North Carr was not on station at Clyde until 1943. At least a reliable clue as to the procedures - just need detail of lighting to Clyde 10/5/1941 , probably only one of the original lights ?
Well the North Carr survives (but only just, it is in a bad way) but has not been a museum for many years now. It was part of a museum when moored in Anstruther, but has now for many years been rusting away in Dundee Docks. These pictures were taken about 8 years ago, but last time I saw it it had deteriorated further
It seems that some lighthouses were in fact painted black , however it seems not all . Here is a good photograph of a Lighthouse in DP to blend with surrounding property.
Anyway sufficient on lighthouses for now, I am satisfied Hess used them at east & west coast. Possibly as a simple belt & braces back up that did not greatly affect concentration needed to pilot + navigate the aircraft.
I have spent a bit of time of late re-reading all earlier books to re-evaluate the info. to hand that is not contaminated by the conspiracy theorists
One thing that does impinge on my mind is that a lot about the EagleSHAM crash-site does not ring true. I feel there may be more truth came out by the free press reporting in the UK , than released by the authorities then or since.
There is one snippet of info. that I have pondered on , possibly the press reported on this more fully in the U.S.A. I do know that the press were puzzled about this at the time. I have purchased a News Agency wire photograph(s) - they are on their way, one still with what seems to be a print caption explaining their puzzlement (and mine).
This is the evidence (possibly) to a untold story ??
The man in the photograph , I suspect is the earliest Glasgow reporter to site (so his name is known) from the common told story. Is that a PRESS arm-band he wears ?
NB. The holes in the upturned fin, there is no structural fixings to the tail-plane at this position , IMHO light skin rivets would not pop like this on impact. Any rivet-counter knows the skin rivets would burst the alloy skin from rivet to rivet or pop the rivet head with a diameter tear little more than the dome head.
Time soon - I am eager to review a photograph of this in better detail. I don't think this photograph was ever shown in the British press , the one of this starboard fin is always in a deep shadow such that the holes are never seen.
Anybody who has ever built a Keil-Craft or Veron balsa model should be able to use his own loaf and say - I vote popped rivet or bullet hole
Is this one of the reasons for the famous words by Roosvelt ??
Yes Ford, I'd guess it's a PRESS arm-band too. The only other thing I'd guess it to be is an "LDV" (Local Defense Volunteer: forerunner of Home Guard) arm band, but by 1941 the Home Guard had uniforms.
Yes, all this additional info. is very interesting - keep it coming !
I very much doubt that Hess's Bf110 would have taken off from Augsburg with any damage of this nature, it would have been totally free of any defect.
The aircraft is well recorded in books etc. interviews with such as Helmut Kaden and Willi Messerschmidt , it was for the sole use of Hess, apparently he liked this particular aircraft and requested (granted) that it be modified for his requirements in several ways. It is also stated that it was kept guarded. The code was a factory code , never issued for action.
This particular photograph is in fact the one used on the front page of the "DAILY RECORD" dated Tuesday May 13th 1941 Headlined RUDOLF HESS IN GLASGOW OFFICIAL. It is used in the book My Father Rudolf Hess by Wolf Rudiger Hess , but it does seem infrequently used in comparisons in common photographs used in all the other books. The details of the bullet holes are not seen as even though it is the same photograph , the fin is in heavy shadow or is it just poor quality of news-print for a detailed photograph ?
I have read at odd times about these bullet holes and wondered, it does seem to me that after the revelation in the Daily Record that this photograph was subject of censorship in the U.K. I have watched and waited to get a wire photograph from US release
The fin does look a bit battered in the newsreel when at the Carluke scrap yard , understandable under the circumstances.
The provenance of the news wire photograph is sound , comparison to the "DAILY RECORD" dated Tuesday May 13th 1941 , front page headline - it is the same photograph , reading the history of reporter / photographer to crash site, story submit to censor , wtf , chance of a lifetime scoop - print and be dammed.
I would have to search my Hess books for the best write up on all this. One thing that is mentioned , the photographer was a bit shirty when instructed to go - stating he would only take a photograph of the crash wreckage , not the McLeans or others..
Can you identify the lady as being of the farm house / cottage , I presume the men could be locals , dress seems reporter(s) or "official" civil investigator types
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reporting in the UK , than released by the authorities then or since.
