Much indignation this morning, as the following message was circualted, telling of a broadcast made on this day in 1940:

"'Radio Caledonia' now on air, calling for Scots independence & end to 'English war'. It's a Nazi propaganda broadcast from a Scotch Fascist."

Nobody cared about Independence, the "English War", or the Nazi propaganda...

But lots of comments followed regarding the description of the Fascist as "Scotch".

Apparently no-one thought the idea of a bottle of whisky, or an egg cooked with meat and breadcrumbs made much of a Fascist threat.



Still, I wonder if the chappie behind it was identified and caught?

(That's the Scottish Fascist I mean, not the (probably) American who doesn't seem to know the difference between Scotch and Scots )

That's the Scottish Fascist I mean, not the (probably) American who doesn't seem to know the difference between Scotch and Scots  

Apollo, back in the 1940's and much later, people from Scotland were known as "Scotch" people. It was very rare one would hear a Scottish person referred to as "a Scot ". The word "Scotch" when referring to the drink wasn't in general use in Scotland. In a pub, one simply asked for "a half" if one wanted a whisky.

Quoted from Dugald

That's the Scottish Fascist I mean, not the (probably) American who doesn't seem to know the difference between Scotch and Scots  

Apollo, back in the 1940's and much later, people from Scotland were known as "Scotch" people. It was very rare one would hear a Scottish person referred to as "a Scot ". The word "Scotch" when referring to the drink wasn't in general use in Scotland. In a pub, one simply asked for "a half" if one wanted a whisky.

I can never understand how many Scotch people like to use their own dialect words just like other parts of the country but when someone in England used a quite recognisable English word they kick up a fuss.  

People in England don't complain when those in North Britain use "Sassenach" and not the proper word "Saxons" which of course include many of the people in North Britain.

Put tin hat on and retreat.  

(I was looking at copies of some lists of RAF DF station from TNA and a couple gave the address as "Caithness NB" though the Wickers might approve as it distinguishes them from the Southerners in Glasgow and Edinburgh!)

I hope you're not trying to excuse misuse of words and class it as acceptable simply because they sound and look similar.

(I'm dismissing the 'Sassenach' and 'Saxon' comparison as irrelevant, since it bears no comparison to 'Scotch' and 'Scots'.)

It's like saying their interchangeable simply because there so similar, even though their meanings are completely different.

And I mean dictionary sourced meaning, let alone meanings that are meaningful to Scottish people, even when they are abbreviated to Scots (and may or may not contain copipous quantities of Scotch.)

Hmmm...

Let's rerun and change the words, and see if it makes sense or looks stupid:

And I mean dictionary sourced meaning, let alone meanings that are meaningful to Scottish people, even when they are abbreviated to Scotch (and may or may not contain copipous quantities of Scots.)

Well, I think that second version in italics looks pretty stupid, and will rest my case there (or their, or they're).

Now, where is that shop that sells tin hats?

Emerging momentarily from beneath tin hat, I just want to be crystal on not knocking anything about Sassenachs and Saxons - in fact, I wouldn't even know where to start on that since I don't have any knowledge of either.

I'm only kicking the cloth-eared and ignorant who cannot tell the difference between Scotch and Scots, and for all I know... believe the two to be interchangeable, as evidenced by a number of past conversations.

[Refits tin hat ]

Surely, scotch, scots and scottish all mean the same but by custom and practice are used in different contexts.

It is all very well quoting dictionaries but they lag behind common usage.  As evidence for this I give you the annual (?) list of new words absorbed into the Oxford English Dictionary.

Surely, scotch, scots and scottish all mean the same but by custom and practice are used in different contexts.

It is all very well quoting dictionaries but they lag behind common usage.  As evidence for this I give you the annual (?) list of new words absorbed into the Oxford English Dictionary.

Hmmm, ahm lost in this discussion about the use of "Scotch"... it's a wee bit beyond my understanding and I'm beginning to wonder if my leg is being pulled or not. Anyway, when I lived in Glasgow there was a school called the "The Scotch School" and this was cast in stone on the side of the building. A picture of the school was once shown in the Sunday Mail to prove that "Scotch" was at one time perfectly acceptable as meaning a "Scottish person".

Now, with regard to the 'Radio Caledonia' bit, I have never heard of this piece of Nazi propaganda. I'm sure however, that there were during the war, Scotch fascists: Scottish people who were members of a fascist group who advocated Scottish independence. I knew of a group of young men who dressed in kilts and navy-blue tunics who spent a lot of weekend time in caves around Arrochar playing chanters. One Sunday night in 1943 while getting a lift home on the Campbeltown Creamery lorry, the driver stopped in Arrochar and picked up about six of these young men (they sat on the back of the lorry beside the big tanks) and they played their chanters and sang Scottish songs as well as the "Horst Wessel" song (in English) all the way into Glasgow. The driver told me he often gave them a lift into Glasgow.

It could also mean they the stone-mason / carver was a ex-pupil of that same school , or that he had Scotch / Scots  drinking habbits    

Quoted from FordPerfect

It could also mean they the stone-mason / carver was a ex-pupil of that same school , or that he had Scotch / Scots  drinking habbits    

Or he realised that his stone was too small to incorporate the word "Scottish" and went for the shorter version.

Or,  because it was the correct use of a word in the English language.

I can't see the point in knocking my use of dictionary terms.

Of course dictionary terms lag current use - it's only through continued 'current use' that words earn their place in a dictionary.

This has even come up elsewhere, as many of the words appearing in the dictionary updates of recent years have been considered by many to have no place in a reputable dictionary, being made-up concatenations of real words, rather than genuinely or properly formed new words. I forget the examples given (they are to be found in another thread in here), but many have been parodies on gender specific terms, and produced words like 'mankini' and similar, which may make a joke of gender or sexist words, or have a poke at PC, but are simply not genuinely new words that belong in a dictionary - and when the buzz around them drops, so too do they suddenly find themselves ejected from the dictionary, where they should never have been in the first place.

I suspect they probably only make it in there as the people employed for the task fear losing their jobs if they do not deliver enough words to justify their positions with the publisher. If they put the stupid words in - then they guarantee themselves work in five years or so when those same stupid words have to be removed, when their work shows they have fallen out of general use (which they were never really in, in the first place).

As regards Scotch and Scots...

Would you like a wee nip of Scots?

Does "Here is a list of the top ten Scotch people of 2012" even look right?

John Logie Baird is said by many to be the Scotch inventor of television.

Whisky blenders have been travelling abroad to promote genuine Scotch Scotch to many new customers, as India tries to sell its own product.

You'll get a black eye if you ask a Scotch man if anything is worn under the kilt, and be informed that everything is in perfect working order - even his command of the English language

Then he might offer you a wee glass of Scots, to help take the pain away.

These folk might be upset too: Scotch Whisky Association - Home

Here (or should that be 'there'? ) we learn (with no sign of a drink referred to as 'Scots'):

Scotch Whisky has been defined in the United Kingdom (UK) since 1933 and recognised in European Community law since 1989. The current UK legislation relating specifically to Scotch Whisky is ‘The Scotch Whisky Regulations 2009’. The Regulations govern the production, labelling, and presentation of Scotch Whisky.

Scotch Whisky Association - History of Scotch Whisky

This from a handy little booklet that can be yours for little more effort than downloading a handy pdf

Download

It might have been acceptable to make the mistake of referring to Scots as Scotch in olden days, but it was also acceptable and normal in many communities to refer to black people as 'niggers', without any of the racial implications the word has today - try that one now, or even just using the word nigger in context. I've just been on a site where it was not even allowed to be typed, even just to refer to it, and it had to mentioned only as 'The N-word', otherwise you were jumped on and everyone 'shouted' at you.

At least that isn't going to happen to you with Scots and Scotch.

I looked up "mankini" just to see, Collins have it but OED does not.  I thought that the OED might have it as they are the dictionary of record but they probably wait to see if the word becomes generally adopted.  The newspapers had the other day that Collins were allowing readers to nominate words for inclusion, the OED has been doing that for years so I could not see why it was "news".

MB