Interesting article in this weeks (11-11-2011) Dunoon Observer and Argyllshire Standard on the HMS Dasher disaster. An Ayrshire author ( John Steele ) has written a book called "The American Connection to the Sinking of HMS Dasher" which suggests that after the sinking a large number of bodies were washed ashore around Ardrossan and further bodies washed up over the following 3 weeks. Apparently they were recovered by RN personnel and carried away under tarpaulins in contractors lorries.
It seems that the bodies may have been interred in a mass grave in Ardrossan Cemetary. A ground penetrating radar survey in 2011 did not rule out the possibility of a large pit and many bodies not in coffins. A legal submission has been made to Kilmarnock Sheriff Court for permission to remove the turf and some of the top soil to allow a further radar survey.
Official records show that 355 bodies were never recovered.
A possible mass grave containing hundreds of bodies of Second World War personnel will be searched by archaeologists.
The site in Ardrossan Cemetery, North Ayrshire, will be searched next week in relation to the sinking of HMS Dasher off the coast of the town on March 27, 1943.
In what was one of the UK’s worst maritime disasters, 379 people died with only 16 being given recorded burials following what campaigners John and Noreen Steele believe was a cover up by the British Admiralty.
Guard Archaeology will carry out the work next week following the long-running campaign by the Steeles, who believe vessel exploded because of design faults in the process of converting it into an aircraft carrier.
I - and probably a few people in this forum - have read quite a lot about HMS Dasher, and as far as I am aware, there is no dispute about there being a cover-up of the disaster of HMS Dasher's explosion.
Nor is there anything new in the suggestion that there were faults in the conversion of the ship into an aircraft carrier.
The former has been covered in respect of moral at the time, with there being an understandable desire not to announce to the British population that we had blown up one of out own ships in just off the British coast and killed hundreds.
And the latter was also said to have been suppressed at the time since the conversion work was done by America, and there was a fear of outrage or hostility towards an important ally if it was suggested that American workers had botched the conversion, and been the cause of the loss of hundreds of British service personnel.
It's a little hard to see how the exhumation of remains that have been in the ground for some 70 years is going to point to any design faults in the Dasher conversion.
I do hope that as this work progresses, or when it is completed and some sort of report is prepared and presented, the media still has an interest and publishes more information, because I feel we are being sold short on this.
Or there is no real story here, just a couple of campaigners who are pursuing an interest, without having anything that is actually new.
If it does turn out to be a mass grave it will/should prove the theory that the official casualty figures for the disaster were cooked by the government.
The deep radar scan was carried out a long time ago and the results appeared ambiguous. I guess getting the necessary permissions took a long time as did organising a team of archaeologists.
EDIT add
There is something in the back of my mind about seeing a TV programme that commented on different shipboard systems for use and storage of petrol in aircraft carriers. The US system was regarded as being very dangerous by the Brits. If my memory is correct then this could be construed as a design fault.
I'm not aware of any claims that the casualty figure were "cooked by the government." (This is different from suppressing news of the explosion and sinking.)
How could they, since the ship's complement was a known figure - and to what end?
Once the sinking of Dasher was mentioned in despatches, the losses would also have been known.
And there would be no revelation about a 'mass grave' since this is already known, and one of the reasons there were problems - as families demanded the return of their relatives bodies for burial.
If you have also seen a TV programme that covered the US fuel system used in the converted merchant ships, and the British concerns regarding the US, then again, the info that the these so-called 'campaigners' seem to be 'revealing' is known.
So what are they campaigning for if all the info they are campaigning for is already established and known?
If it was the case that we currently understood two or three personnel lost their lives and were buried in Ardrossan while the rest of crew went home quietly, and the mass grave was an unknown secret that they had found out about recently, I'd understand. But this is not the case. We know more than have the complement died, and that many went into a mass grave.
If it was the case that the carrier sank and the fact that the US conversion and fuel storage system was suspect, but this had never been mentioned, I'd understand. But this is not the case, and the lack of mention of such a suspicion at the time is also well known.
And for that, a dive on the wreck would be needed, and that's not being done by the campaigners.
The yearning for more detail about what they are doing remains, as does the desire to see their results.
Agreed, I cannot see how casualty figures could be "cooked" because the number on board is known and the number of survivors is known. There is not likely to be any significant error in either figure.
Some unidentifiable bodies might have been buried without a marker but that probably happened often. I was told of a post-war shipwreck in the islands where the practice was to bury identifiable bodies in the churchyard, any others were just buried where found on the beach. The best known example of this was the Annie Jane in the 19th Century.
I suppose a few more books, newspaper articles and TV films will be produced either way.
The cause of the loss of HMS Dasher has never been conclusively determined although a court of enquiry held three days after the incident suspected ignition of fuel vapour and subsequent explosion. There is no evidence that I have seen to support this theory. In my experience explosions caused by fuel vapour tend to go up and out and rarely breech the hull of a vessel below the water line. In this case survivor accounts tell of water rushing in and the vessel sinking within five minutes. I think a more likely cause of the sinking was a result of enemy action in the way of contact with a mine. The area is known to have been previously mined by a German U boat. U33 was sunk while laying mines in very close proximity to the point where HMS Dasher was sunk. Could HMS Dasher have been sunk by a mine from U33 ?
A cover-up was meticulously planned. When 60 HMS Dasher bodies were brought ashore at Ardrossan, 16 received a recorded burial. The other 44 bodies were made to ‘disappear.’
Bit of poor journalese surely? Either that or somebody in Military Intelligence was good at amateur magic!
Hard to believe even the Royal Navy missed any mines it laid, as Dasher went down in march 1943 - 3 years later.
An open petrol container may appear to explode upwards as the hot products rise, but petrol constrained by tanks and below decks in Dasher would have caused explosive forces radiation in all directions from the source of the explosion.
Such explosion would have taken place in the space where the fuel air mixture was correct, not in the fuel itself, where there is no oxygen.
The initial explosion in the vapour would have ruptured the tanks, decks, sides etc, then the fuel would have been free to be dispersed and burn, and may even have been dispersed, and caused a secondary explosion as the mixture of air and fuel droplet dispersed and reached the correct ratio.
Dasher also had six torpedoes and 104 depth charges on board.
The Court of Enquiry held three days later revealed no evidence for an external cause of the explosion, which was seen as being caused by the ignition of petrol vapour. The inadequate safety provisions in ships of this class were noted and numerous detailed amendments to standard operating procedures were proposed. These included the reduction by half of the quantity of aviation fuel carried, modification to the fuel distribution system, and the fitting of asbestos fire curtains within the hangar, in accordance with British practice.
Did divers go down to inspect the wreck or has it been inspected since by divers or by ROV? The damage from an internal explosion and a mine should be quite different.
I can't remember where I read it, but I thought that the sinking was caused by the flash fire then exploding ammunition. WRT to the fire I recall something about a hole between decks?
Also, isn't the confidential information, cause and effect, due to be released by the MoD shortly?
As far as I know there has been no inspection of the hull to determine the cause of explosion. Although there had been concerns about fuel storage and vapour on this class of escort carrier no previous or subsequent explosions or fires that I am aware of have or had taken place. I stand by my initial statement that the most likely cause of the loss of this vessel would be a mine. The convenient conclusion of the enquiry had determined explosion due to the ignition of fuel vapour with no evidence to support this. If I were in their position in 1943 which was a pivotal period in WW2 l would go for the accident theory rather than loss as a result of enemy action.If you look at this ship there is a lot of superstructure above the waterline. In my opinion an explosion would not result in this ship sinking within 5 mins. I still think HMS Dasher was sunk by a mine not because I think there is overwhelming evidence to support it but because it is the more likely cause. Sophisticated magnetic Mines were still being searched for in the firth of Clyde in 1945. See link. Has anybody asked the Kriegsmarine if they left anything lying about in that general area I hear they were meticulous at keeping records ?
Apparently the U-Boat records have been checked, and there is no record of enemy action - at least not in terms of a torpedo.
The idea of a mine is pretty far-fetched.
This was the approach to the Firth of Clyde, the Tail O' The Bank, a naval anchorage, a route used by Atlantic convoy vessels, a route used by shipping travelling to and from the shipyards at Clydebank, the combined American and British naval base at Rosneath...
I could go on.
The chances of a mine going undetected, or the U-Boat planting it going undetected are minute.
Such events occurred, the U-Boats tried to lay mines, but when they got close enough to do their job, they were normally detected and chased by RN until destroyed or lost.
The area was continually patrolled by minesweepers.
I would give more credence to a claim that 'we' sunk Dasher by a mine that broke loose from one of 'our' minefields, which were laid in the area to deal with U-Boats.
In the subject of inspection, I find it odd that there seems to be no immediately accessible account of any such events - I don't know if anyone perhaps has good contacts that might be asked about this, and know where to look. Diving and suchlike are... foreign to me, so I have little in the way of good leads for this,
The report in Ahoy - Mac's Web Log is quite specific, and it's also worth noting the earlier history of the ship and the damage and repairs it had sustained in its earlier days, as a contribution to its failure:
Quoted Text
Horrendous explosion.
Suddenly at 1640 ( 4.40 PM ) a horrendous explosion took place, and the after aircraft lift, about two tons in weight, with a mighty roar lifted high in the air to about 60 feet above the flight deck. Six or so personnel standing on the lift toppled off into the sea to be lost. Flame and black smoke poured out of the void, and the flight deck like a sardine can lid, folded back to half its length and the ship immediately started to settle by the stern as the bow raised.
Holes were rent in the ship's side as she listed 10 degrees to starboard.
The Captain ordered "ABANDON SHIP."
Dasher's position was 205 degrees 5 miles from Cumbrie Island light, within 8 minutes the ship had sunk, sitting upright with the flight deck about 130 metres below the surface.
Of the Enquiry:
Quoted Text
Cause of the Explosion in Dasher.
The Board of Enquiry were of the opinion that the explosion took place either in the after depth charge magazine or the main petrol stowage. These two compartments were adjacent to one another. There was some evidence that there may have been an accumulation of petrol vapour in the main petrol compartment, which could have ignited by a man smoking in the shaft tunnel, or someone dropping a cigarette end down from the Fleet Air Arm messdeck, to the petrol control compartment or below.
The lighting system was not up to the magazine lighting specification, a fault on this system could have ignited petrol vapour when the lights were activated. All in all, a very sloppy set of circumstances, that when an explosion from whatever cause did happen, it triggered a tragedy and 379 crew died.
Not much of a blanket of secrets to be honest- I wrote my degree thesis on RN escort carrier operations and looked at Dasher in some detail.
The official report listed some 90 possible causes for the explosion, all due to error on the part of the ship's company and the poor build quality of the ship herself - in one instance they found that it would have been technically possible for a lighted cigarette dropped in the stoker's mess to have fallen through a duct and entered one of the fuel tanks(!)
Where the conspiracy theorists get exercised is in the idea that she was sunk by a U-boat, and the fact that the sinking was not admitted to until after the war. To be honest, there is not a shred of evidence that there was a U-boat in the area at the time, and it is farmore likely that the govt simply did not want to lower national morale throughgoping public about such an epic cock-up and so many deaths caused by an accident.
As an aside, and where there is more chance of a cover-up, I was surprised that the board of inquiry so quickly dismissed the evidence of an eyewitness (shepherd?) on the Isle of Arran who said that immpediately prior to the explosion he saw an aircraft miss the round down coming into land and flying straight into the gap at the stern between the flight deck and the hull. Beyond that, I don't really think that there is much more to come out about what, we have to believe, was a tragic accident.
Regarding diving, I have now tracked down dive information, but the details appear to have been redacted - I need to find some alternative sources.
There is mention of an RN dive, but that the findings were not released.
Also, U-Boat Net tells us:
Quoted Text
High-definition sonar survey of wreck of HMS Dasher by HMS Echo, Royal Naval hydrographical ship. The sonar images were not published, but the flight deck shows clear evidence of a large internal explosion. Depth over the wreck is reported as 124m.
It should be noted that HMS Dasher is HMS Dasher is listed as a Controlled Site...
These vessels may not be dived under any circumstances without the permission of the Ministry of Defence, a permission that is rarely, if ever, granted.
This is all I can find on a dive made in 2000 - it may be the only dive ever made on Dasher, given the official restriction, and the depth/conditions.
Quoted Text
DEEPEST COLD WATER WRECK DIVE
28 JUNE 2000 HMS DASHER.
HMS Dasher is a British aircraft carrier, resting intact and upright in 170m / 555ft of water, midway between Arran and Ardrossan in the lower Clyde on the west coast of Scotland. Hitherto, it had been considered out of reach for untethered diving.
Today, a team from the European Technical Dive Centre in Scapa Flow dived 131m / 428 ft to the flight deck of HMS Dasher and laid a plate prepared by the relatives' association in memorial of the 379 men who perished when HMS Dasher sank on 27th March 1943. In additional to the memorial plate dedicated in a service in Ardrossan, John and Noreen Steele of the Dasher relatives' association each laid a rose at the site.
On this date a team from the European Technical Dive Centre in Scapa Flow dived 131m / 428 ft to the flight deck of HMS Dasher and laid a Memorial Plaque prepared by the relatives' association in memory of the 379 men who perished when HMS Dasher sank on 27th March 1943. The engraved Memorial Plaque was dedicated by the Reverend J Smith. EU Church. Ardrossan.
I cannot find any other related links at the moment.
In the BBC Peoples War item quoted above, the writer refers to HMS Dasher as a "Woolwich" carrier. I believe that this is incorrect and that they were known as "Woolworth Carriers" because the conversion from merchant ships was done on the cheap.
The report from the Arran shepherd is interesting. Another of the accounts above refers to a plane crashing into the ammunition area which another reports as being aft beside the petrol store. My initial rreaction was to assume that the Ammunition Area was on the flight deck but the other report suggests not. If this was a case of what we would now call "friendly fire" it could explain why the event has been hushed up.
We need a plan of the ship!
I wonder how the archaeologists are getting on at Ardrossan Cemetery?
.... I would give more credence to a claim that 'we' sunk Dasher by a mine that broke loose from one of 'our' minefields, which were laid in the area to deal with U-Boats. ....
Mines could break loose and drift some distance but the minefield between Ailsa Craig and Kintyre was "largely fictitious" so it would probaby have to have drifted from South of there. (Reference: Shield of Empire)
There is documented evidence of two U-Boats laying mines in the area where HMS Dasher was lost. U33 in 1940 which was sunk by HMS Gleaner. U218 in 1945 also laying mines. We also have a ship the Ethel Crawford lost with all hands in that area due to contact with a mine. If we had U-Boats laying mines in 1940 when Germany was probably at it's strongest and also in 1945 when they were at their weakest I find it hard to believe there was no mining activity in between these two dates. I reckon it would be easy to check German admiralty records to see if any mine laying was taking place near to the date when HMS Dasher was sunk.
Very interesting book. See failed mission U32. More evidence of mine laying in the area where HMS Dasher was sunk orchestrated by no more than the man himself Karl Donitz. This took place in 1939 before the sinking of U33.
Looking at 1940 and then 1945 and making an assumption about 1943 makes no sense whatsoever.
The strength of the U-Boat fleet bore no relation to the strength of Germany, since it was down to campaigning by Admiral Doenitz who was fighting to have it grown - in 1940, for example, it was, I believe, only at one-sixth the strength he wanted in order to take on the Battle of the Atlantic.
The U-Boats were ravaged by the Allies towards the end of 1942, as they perfected their techniques for dealing with the Wolf Packs the had devastated the Atlantic convoys during the earlier years and the so-called 'Happy Time' when the U-Boats were free to ravage the convoys in mid-Atlantic, where there was no air cover, and escorts were few.
By the end of 1942, the Allies had plenty of escort vessels, and more importantly, had air cover continuous from America to Britain - it took them as little as 2 months then to turn the tables on the U-Boats and start destroying them, instead of them destroying the convoys.
By April 1943, U-Boat numbers were declining as the Allies defences really began to take effect, and by May things were so bad that Doenitz called off operations in the Atlantic and declared the battle lost.
Point is that in April, when Dasher went down, the chances of missions to drop of a few mines in the Firth would have been the last thing Doenitz would have been likely to approves, as the Allies were by them beginning to wipe out his boats in the Atlantic, numbers were falling, and he would have wanted all available resources there to try and counter the turn.
The idea of Doenitz sending a U-Boat to lay mines in the Firth would probably have seen Hitler hand him a pistol and tell him to to do the 'honourable' thing at that stage in the battle.
Torpedo has been rules out.
Mine idea doesn't stack - either as a plant at the time, or as something floating around. There just weren't enough mine encounters to make this viable.
I cannot prove a negative of course, but I can suggest a probability approaching zero
It's a word file written by the team that left the plaque.
Also, regarding the cause, from Hansard, no less: the Right Honourable Fatty Soames May 9th 1996,
HMS Dasher, an escort carrier based on a mercantile hull and built in the USA, blew up and sank on 27 March 1943, due to an explosion in her aviation fuel system. All papers relating to her loss have been available at the Public Record Office since 1972. A deep dive on this wreck was conducted in January 1982, on behalf of the Royal Navy Hydrographic Office. The purpose of the dive was positively to identify Dasher, which is lying close to another wreck, and to obtain an accurate fix of her position for charting purposes. The information now appears on Admiralty chart No. 2491.
Finally, the cemetery excavation began on Tuesday. Still no word of any findings?
According to naval history net, two British subs were also lost in the Clyde in 1943; HMS Vandal on 24th February and HMS Untamed on May 30th. That might explain the Government's haste to play down the Dasher incident to protect morale-
Thanks for laying hands on the doc regarding the dive - that was one of the links I referred to earlier, and was a dead version when I tried to follow it.
However, it does not explain why the diving is infrequent, it merely goes into extreme detail regarding their activities on the day the dived.
This seems to be in line with every other reference to the dive by individuals or the Navy, none of which appear to describe the condition of the wreck and any evidence that indicates the location, extent, or type of any damage, or might indicate the cause or source of the explosion.
I already listed the reason for the infrequent dives, and gave the source, that of it being a protected wreck, and needing MoD permission to be dived - and just made an extensive number of posts with related details above. Also noted was the record depth of this dive, and the need for special equipment.
Also, regarding the cause...
The para you gave only reiterates the event of an explosion in the aviation fuel system - Right Honourable Fatty Soames May 9th 1996, gives no reason for the explosion.
I doubt we will hear anything of the excavation, unless someone is really keen and prepared to stick their neck out.
Any news - and in particular anything that counts as a revelation and challenges any accepted stories regarding Dasher - will be checked, double-checked, re-evaluated, and probably run under the noses of a team of lawyers before it is released to the public.
You never know - information has already been withheld - the Navy dive - someone might turn up with a black bag and collect everything from the dig!
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