We received a query about a building in Helensburgh.
Does anyone know if the building in the ground to the west of the lodge at the northeast corner of the former Clyde Street School on Clyde Street East had any military application during World War II?
According to the enquirer - a former resident now living in Ontario - it is thought to have once ben some kind of Government or Post Office building. Their father told them that it had been built during the war, and was some top secret hush-hush Royal Navy operation. There was never any kind of sign on the building stating what it was. As a boy, the enquirer recalls that the gates were always locked, and that there was usually a guard or police officer at the gate, stopping anyone from entering. And, he was told never to go in there.
For what it's worth, I've had a look at the obvious historic sources and building references, and nothing came up, not even a reference to the building.
However, I have now been told that it is the derelict former HQ of the 1st Craigendoran Scouts.
http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=U.....=0,0.010643&z=17 This building was the HQ of 1st Craigendoran Scouts, if it helps I believe it was a school dinner kitchen before the scouts took it over in the eighties
Believe it or not, the location did not come over too well in the original query from Canada, and the position to the east or west of the school got changed over more than once
We were almost guessing in the end - I kid you not.
I wasn't too sure of the building you have identified, at first, as it might conceivably have been thrown up as part of the works that can be seen, but with your confirmation of the Scout HQ, the characteristics of a wartime building become much more obvious.
(I have edited and corrected my initial post, merely to avoid later confusion.)
I have seen the building when going through Helensburgh, I wondered if it was a Civil Defence building but that was just a from quick glances as I drove past.
Earlier maps (back to at least 1899) have another building that is further back from the road and has paths coming from four directions to it. The 1938 map shows just the earlier building but I am never confident about the date of this map on the Old Maps website because I have seen post-WWII things on some supposedly 1938 maps.
The 1958 map has both buildings there.
So the building could be from around WWII.
MB
(I hope I am looking at the right building on the map!)
I thought you would have come up with HMS Spartiate and/or the Clyde River Patrol as a potential owner at some point - due to the apparent security that was reported.
According to an Argyll & Bute Council Planning document it is/was leased by the Scouts. The owner was not quoted.
It could have been part of HMS Vernon(H).
Which HMS Vernon was that? There is one listed for the Gare Loch but the only one I can see around there is Alexandria which is not listed under the Gare Loch.
I thought you would have come up with HMS Spartiate and/or the Clyde River Patrol as a potential owner at some point - due to the apparent security that was reported.
HMS Vernon(H) was a surprise.
Wasn't HMS Spartiate Clyde Commercial Port and HMS Spartiate II a WRNS Training Establishment at Tullichewan?
Nothing found online, at least not a few years ago when the more detailed trawl was dome (mostly by The Fox) - that was when the Helensburgh side of HMS Vernon jumped out at us.
Looking at the old-maps offering of the earlier survey maps, I suspect there is only the one building, the present one.
Looking at how far back the earlier outline appears, which appears to be a little to the south of this known current structure, I have the feeling that it is actually depicting nothing more than a flower bed in an area of park and paths, as it is quite a bit narrower than the building, which is not all that wide.
No other evidence, just a feeling I get from looking at other maps of the time.
Nothing found online, at least not a few years ago when the more detailed trawl was dome (mostly by The Fox) - that was when the Helensburgh side of HMS Vernon jumped out at us.
Looking at the old-maps offering of the earlier survey maps, I suspect there is only the one building one, the present one.
Looking at how far back the earlier outline appears, which appears to be a little to the south of this known current structure, I have the feeling that it is actually depicting nothing more than a flower bed in an area of park and paths, as it is quite a bit narrower than the building, which is not all that wide.
No other evidence, just a feeling I get from looking at other maps of the time.
That's possible, I think one map shows them both so it is not two structures being confused. If it was a small park / garden then that could fit with it being built during the war as they would use any available bit of land. There is precedence for a wartime building becoming a school kitchen, there was the Garrison Theatre on The Parade in Fort William and it became a school canteen postwar before demolition.
There are no good wartime aerial images around there on TARA.
Maybe it was a local NAAFI in its day, and they grew vegetables in the flower bed
Just kidding - (If it had been used by the NAAFI, then I'm sure there would have been memories of it online already).
I had forgotten about that map you mention, that showed both ground features, adjacent. I think their apparent closeness was what sparked the thought that the early feature was decorative rather than structural.
Casting about the old-maps contributions I did discover a 1,000yard rifle range (19th C) and the target area might still exist in some shape or form -Wiki page contemplated. More importantly, to me at least, I discovered that the 1965 1:2500 maps clearly show HAA Batteries that were still in existence at the time and thus the Helensburgh one can clearly identified as a Type L.
Going back to the original query, the mention of a guard or policeman could suggest some kind of civil rather than service use but I have no idea what. Perhaps the question should be raised with the Helensburgh Heritage site?
Looking at the old maps, there was defiantly an earlier building on this site, although it was slightly further south. None of the maps show both, although the 1958 map shows the original building and a separate outline to the north. This outline is not shaded and is not the current building, my guess is that it is a garden feature. This original building has a distinctive shape, it is quite thin with two rounded ends, it is at the centre of five/four paths and it appears on the earliest map of 1862-83 where it is called “Seabank”, I’ve no doubt it was a large private house.
The current building first appears on the 1965 map and is labelled as “Central Kitchens”, it doesn’t appear on the 1958 or 1938 maps so I don’t believe it is WWII vintage. (I appreciate it may have been “missed off” the 1958 map if it really was an important site) Could I suggest that the original private house, Seabank, might have been requisition during the war for some military use and afterwards fell into the council‘s hands and was knocked down and the kitchens built?
In the eighties, I was inside the current building when it was being gutted for the scouts and while there was defiantly some big cookers, I saw nothing to indicate a military past. Just for info, for a while there were also portacabins on the site for a small disabled school.
I believe the Mains Hill 1000yd rifle range was still in use in the WWII, the target mound and shooting stages were still identifiable in the early eighties and you could still find fired cases and bullets. (no Xboxes then to keep you out of trouble!)
It is hard to make accurate assumptions from the OSmaps on old-maps as the dates referred to might meanything in terms of updates. It was quite common in the 50s to buy a new OSmap and find most of it dated back to the 30s appart from roads which had been brought up to date. I checked out a few now missing HAA Batteries which as far as I am aware were there in the 60s but many are not shown whereas others are. I imagine it depends when the 6" maps of the areas were updated as the others would have been extrapolated from these.
The building is WWII instyle and I would have said and unlikely to be postwar.
There was a Royal Navy office at Helensburgh pier in WWII - telephone Helensburgh 956, probably complete coincidence but Helensburgh Home Guard was 957.
I didn't want to confuse things by bringing in Seabank, since it is long gone and not really related to the subject matter, but here is a mention of its heritage:
It is quite notable, even though RCAHMS doesn't mention its existence, being a home to Andrew Bonar Law, Financier, Politician, and the only British Prime Minister to have been born outside the British Isles.
It's also the area of ground I hinted at maybe just being a later flower bed in the midst of the old paths left on the ground.
Quoted Text
They set up home in Seabank, a house beside the now closed Clyde Centre, which had originally belonged to his aunt, Janet Kidston, but on the death of Annie’s father Harrington Robley they bought his house Kintillo (left) in Suffolk Street — then entered from West Stafford Street — and he employed famous architect William Leiper to add a billiard room.
They sold the house in 1909, moving to London because the pressure of commuting was becoming too much.
Point taken Fox, and a really interesting post Apollo, perhaps if we knew when Seabank was demolished, we might have a clue as to when the current building was erected. Where would you go to see the 6" maps?
Indeed, there seems to be nothing online about Seabank, other then the former owner's story, which is why I 'kicked' RCAHMS (just kidding ), and there is no mention in the records of old Scottish architects either, which often can give info on houses that have been lost.
It might need a trip to the local town museum or similar to find more.
You can see the 1:2,500 and 1:10,000 maps online using the old-maps links in the:
While we are pulling Helensburgh apart does anyone know where the house called Rosslea is? It is mentioned on the Wiki Maritime Aircraft Experimental Establishment page as the civilian HQ of MAEE in Helensburgh.
It would be nice to pin it down and if somebody knows it would save a lot of time searching the 1:2500 maps on old-maps!
Described as,"a lovely villa" in the BBC reminiscence but that is a bit of an understatement when you look at pics of the hotel! Mind you it is in the right place being adjacent to the area used by MAEE so it could well be the right place. It could have been extended postwar, little of the history is mentioned.
Back to the question in hand - does anybody knoow if the building is still extant as it, or at least the ground towards the shore, is mentioned in the planning application for a new supermarket and as far as I know it is now finished and operational.
Old-maps show that the shape of Rosslea changed greatly in or around the 1970s after which it becomes marked as Rosslea Hall Hotel, so it would have been a villa, albeit a grand one, during WWII.
The Mains Hill Rifle Range turns out to be another SeSco find as it does not appear to be known to RCAHMS.
Can you drop in a grid ref or something for Rosslea pls?
I followed the directions given by the hotel (their map was useless, as it has the marker for the hotel placed across the water, in Rosneath! ), and have tried to spot it by eye, but cannot see the original name, or the hotel names, on any of the old maps, so assume their clues have landed me in completely the wrong place, and I am too far away to even spot it nearby.
Looks as if I just 'got lucky', and picked all the maps that do not actually show the name when I tried following the hotel's description of it's location.
As you say, the mods are indeed late/new/recent, and at the time of MAEE's occupation, it would simply have been another big house taken under requisition.
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