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The Fox
September 15, 2009, 8:44am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Secret
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I have added a photogallery to this page.

I am not convinced that the extant rails date back to WWII.  I am not sure when concrete sleepers came in, nor am I sure when the curly rail spikes came in.  I would have thought both of these were post war but hopefully someone with more knowlege of railways can help out here.

The rails appear to be either standard gauge or something near it.

There is no sign of the house as expected but it was clear that the shore line had been built up with brick and concrete demolition debris faced off with large boulders on the seaward side.  

I would be surprised if this beach was not used for DDay training as the west end is very similar to at least one of the Normandy beaches.

The area of the possible bunker was not explored as the area is plastered with restricting notices and a more clandestine approach would probably be a good idea.
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jmb
September 15, 2009, 9:07am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Enigma
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The description of Canal Defence Lights sounds very much like the system devised by Jasper Maskelyne when he was asked to find a way of "hiding" the Suez Canal.  It could explain the name of the system.

Quoted from Wikipedia
His largest trick was to conceal Alexandria and the Suez Canal to misdirect German bombers. He built a mockup of the night-lights of Alexandria in a bay three miles away with fake buildings, lighthouse, and anti-aircraft batteries. To mask the Suez Canal he built a revolving cone of mirrors that created a wheel of spinning light nine miles wide, meant to dazzle and disorient enemy pilots so that their bombs would fall off-target.


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Apollo
September 15, 2009, 2:15pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Forewarned is Forearmed
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DOW-MAC Concrete Ltd made the sleepers, and they appear to very popular in India, which is where many steam locomotives went (including the ones that might have made up the SSR ).

I must be looking in the wrong places at the moment, but the best sources of info seem to be railway modellers - probably because they are striving for accuracy within their models:

"DOW-MAC" sleepers combined with GW 2 bolt chairs produce the bullhead rail and concrete sleeper combination introduced in the mid 1940s.

This would tend to suggest the The Fox's initial thought about the rails not be war-related are indeed correct - unless DOW-MAC were carried out secret testing of their new product in a remote and isolated top-secret Scottish location
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Apollo
September 15, 2009, 2:26pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Unfortunately, the original CDL link - which came from a site dedicated to Jasper Maskelyne, The War Magician - is no longer available

Maskelyne Magic

I'll have to do some hunting and see if the page has just been moved, or deleted entirely (Update: Sorted this, all links on page now restored)

However, it is fair to say that the whole article credits the potential origin of the idea (and possibly inspired this particular aspect of Maskelyne's work) to earlier work carried out during World War I, and intended to defend troops in the trenches from opposing machine-gun fire.

History repeats

And SeSco is now quoted as a reference in the following CDL description relating to the bay:

Now It Can Be Told! - Tanks That Turn Night Into Local Day - The War Illustrated
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jmb
September 15, 2009, 3:10pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Enigma
Posts: 709
I have a copy of one of the books about Maskelyne.  I don't remember any mention of Scotland but it is many years since I read it.  He worked in the Middle East for some time so would probably have made up the devices there but it is quite possible that the designs were sent back to the UK and tested here.  It just seems too much of a coincidence to have "Canal" in the name of the device mentioned in Scotland - I don't think the Crinan Canal was a major strategic target.     

MB
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The Fox
September 15, 2009, 10:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The rails are a bit of a mystery.  It is not as if they were collected from some local and redundant railway, the nearest railway is at Arrochar.

The curve in the track is odd too as boat trolleys are usualy brought up on straight tracks as they don't have bogies and usually have more than 4 wheels.   The winch doesn't look as if it would have had the power to pull anything very heavy and it is at the side of the track.   Why continue the tracks for several yards beyond it?  I had a look in the undergrowth at the end of the track fora further winch or winch base but didn't find anything.   Mind you the winch could be older and associated with the ruined boathouse.
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The Navigator
September 16, 2009, 4:24pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The concrete sleepers by DOW-MAC with the rails held down by Pandrol clips are probably quite recent manufacture - around late 1960s. These were widely used in sidings and much track like this has been lifted in last couple of decades. There is much detail about these at http://www.mmrs.org.uk/technical/track3.html
This track has been (re)laid from individual components. Once dismantled and lifted from original location onto a lorry they can go anywhere. The sleepers are a mixture of types, and laid too far apart here for the rails to support much weight - about 3-4 tons per axle - although the beach below is probably not going to take more than that anyway without distortion to the track. The curve appears to be to give a constant gradient. The top end of the tracks seem to be straight. Perhaps there is more information about the area around the top of the tracks - is there vehicle access for a big enough truck to deliver a suitable trolley when required?
There is a problem with using a winch on curved track - the rope quickly becomes a chord of the curve and the pull on the winch and load goes off-centre. This can be enough to tip the load over!
I would go for this being a recent installation used occasionally for bringing a small craft out of the water on a trolley that is stored elsewhere - perhaps undercover - and using a tractor for the motive power.
Navigator
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The Fox
September 16, 2009, 5:07pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ta Navigator.   Going to Glasgow by train will never be the same again!

I agree about the winch, I think situated where it is it must predate the rails.  

The rails just end in the bracken just short of a tree and a rock.  There was no evidence of buffers or any other device to stop wheels running off the end as far as I could see.  I suppose it might just be possible to access the site with a landrover or small truck but very limited space for lifting a bogie onto the rails.  A lot of the shore line has been built up with demolition debris but it is not known when this happened or whether it was a response to damage caused by a perticularly bad storm.

I will have to go again, this time before the tide turns to sort out more of the detail and see if the bogie ended up off the rails at the seaward end.

It might be useful Apollo if you can dredge up the original statement from the person who holidayed there and gave us the lead.
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Apollo
September 16, 2009, 6:31pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sorry, but all you have already is all I got, and I have nothing "filed away"

That usually means it was an anonymous note received from the Contact Form, rather than an email. With a return address, there would have been a record, and some attempt at follow-up.

Unfortunately, some of the most interesting things kick off that way, if we're lucky they can be fleshed out (and I lose lots of hours down a bottomless pit), or they are really good, and nothing else can be found online
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TankCore
November 25, 2009, 10:22pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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It was actually me who filed the original request for information on the site. I must thank you all for the further investigation you have carried out. From the photo gallery (Fenced off area may be remains of old bunker Sept 2009) this is exactly the area i reffered to in my original note as location of the bunker. This was originally a tennis court. You can still see the original rusted  iron fence posts mixed with the more recent ones. There is definately access under this area. Situated roughly central to the front elevation of the photograph. There are steps leading to a doorway which gives access under the tennis court. When descending the steps it reveals the blast walls each side. I never investigated further bacause there was water inside maybe only a foot deep but enough to discourage with a pair a trainers on. You may notice the area of the tennis court is elevated. Why ? Why access underneath ? Why concrete ? A lot of bother to go to for a tennis court. The locals in the immediate area do not seem at all too friendly. Was asked by the farmer not to proceed any further down the farm road but was redirected to the beach.Would have investigated further when last there in MAY this year but locals do not seem that friendly and the missus was with me LOL Have searched the WEB but can't find any more info.
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The Fox
November 25, 2009, 11:18pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I have the area in mind for another poke about.
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TankCore
November 26, 2009, 9:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Next time i am there i am taking the wellies and leaving the wife at home. Might be nothing but worth investigating further i think. If the locals don't shoot you. Plus it's not really a burden going there it's a beautiful spot. As a beach can't see how the military could have missed this as a training area for Normandy. The tank landing beach is just round the peninsula at Kames. Why were they landing? Where were they going ? Kilbride Bay ? Craig Lodge OPs centre. Who knows. Anyway thanks for the further investigation.
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The Fox
November 26, 2009, 10:22pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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One of the things that ocurred to me was that it is quite a trek from the road to the bay.  Given that people these days are pretty lazy how many people actually go there now?    It looked to me as if the bunker has been demolished and left a hole in the ground.   One of the possible access routes, the previously muddy lane from the road down to the farm has been bottomed and securely blocked with a 2 metre fence and padlocked gate.  What is that all about?  Getting to the area of the bunker in a clandestine manner is not simple.
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TankCore
November 28, 2009, 10:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I called it in my original note (a bunker) may or may not be. All i can say is that there is access under that tennis court and there are concrete sloping walls each side of the stairs. My son has confirmed this with me as he investigated with me during one of our days to the beach there. We never ventured in as there was water insdie. The bunker has not been demolished as the tennis court sits on top of it which is still intact although now fenced and used as a hen coop or something. You can access the area easily from the beach. The only house that overlooks the area is a small chalet type dwelling. Assume it's there hens. I will have a look next time i'm there. And get some photographs. The signs and security is i must admit a bit odd.
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