Slotted into place, and marked CGS (unless they knocked it down and moved it over the years), I might try and pinpoint some of the other locations given and add markers for them too.
Sorry that I had to use so many local names of locations. The buildings of the CGS mentioned still exist, as far as I know, but the School itself moved a fair number of years ago to a site at Limecraigs. It is a number of years since I have been in Campbeltown - Hutcheon Road was a new one to me, although as a pupil at CGS many years ago I won a Hutcheon Prize. I think Hutcheon had been a maths teacher at CGS in the distant past.
Should also have mentioned in connection with HMS Nimrod that the Orange Hall in St John's Street (also adjacent to Stewart's Green) was part of the establishment. Oddly, what had been the rector's (headmaster's) entrance to the School building, became the entrance to a small cell block built at the front of the School. This meant that those who occupied the cell block were in full view of anyone passing along the street, like ....
The detailed location came from the school's present web site, which gave the Hutcheon Street address and shows the location on a map (OS map gave me the building)...
to get a reference that can just be copied and pasted here.
Next is where is Limecraigs? I see a Limecraigs Road to the west, but know that just having a name on a street is no guarantee of relation to the areas. As one who passes through Campbeltown and knows only the main street, and what I can gather from maps, I haven't a clue, and the maps don't show it as an areas. The closest a really old map came up with was Lunecraigs, and this is the same area, albeit centred a few yards south west.
One thing that did jump out of the old maps was the presence of two rifle ranges. These would predate World War II (the maps are undated, but out of copyright), and occupy the area just to the west of the school, where there is now a small housing development almost slap on top of the marked area, and the area of the woods to immediate east of a small body of water marked Crosshill Loch.
I've check museum historic record, and there is nothing currently reported, but then again, they haven't listed the school buildings, so might not have looked there yet, being too busy with the interesting buildings along the shore to the east.
There has been considerable development since 1945 and Limecraigs Road on present day maps is new, and not the Limecraigs Road of 1945, which led to the same general area from Kilkerran Road and is now , it appears, Woodlands Drive). The location of the old CGS (which is now, I believe, a further education centre is:
Limecraigs, in terms of the map is the area where the present CGS is located, around the junction of Limecraigs Road and Woodlands Drive. From the map you will see Ardnacraig Drive which appears to lead to a new housing development on the site of Ardnacraig House (destroyed by fire in the late 1940s). The WRNS huts then wiould be located on the sea-side of the junction of Kilkerran Road and Woodlands Drive. Lunecraigs is simply an error for Limecraigs.
Stronvaar is located between the south-eastern end of (again new) Stronvaar Avenue and Kilkerran Road. In the 1940s Stronvaar Avenue was only a muddy track behind the houses on Kilkerran Road.
Rifle ranges: I'm not sure which old maps you are using, but there was probably a rifle range in the distant past in the valley from Knockbay to Crosshill Loch, which was formed by a dam and until the 1950s was the reservoir from which most of Campbeltown drew its water, by way of a tunnel, parallel to the second rifle range. This second range was in use certainly until the 1940s and would probably have been used by HMS Nimrod and other organisations. It bordered a wood and ran uphill. Several butts were constructed on the line of this range. Post-war development led to the housing estate (Meadows Avenue, Crosshill Avenue, Range Road(!), and Tomaig Road), which more or less cut off access to the rifle range (as well as covering part of the track of the old Campbeltown-Machrihanish light railway).
In the 1950s, besides the POL depot which was built at Glenramskill, there was a NATO project to build another jetty between Kilkerran cemetery and Knockbay (close to where leading lights were installed later for the benefit of ships approaching the POL jetty) and the line of a wide track, which could have been used for moving aircraft to the modernised HMS Landrail (which became RAF Machrihanish on the completion of development) was marked out by stakes. This passed very close to the above housing estate.
I suspect that this second range fell into disuse not only because of its proximity to houses, but also because a more isolated outdoor range was built at HMS Landrail behind the sand dunes of Machrihanish Bay (in the vicinity of the bomb disposal building which I mentioned in a previous posting on the mysterious building at Abbotsinch.
The whole question of Campbeltown during the war years has been researched, although, as far as I know, nothing has appeared in print. In The Campbeltown Book (which was so helpful regarding the Campbeltown/Drumlemble canal) there is a chapter on the war years, which is very sketchy and uninformative.
Thank goodness I asked - the developments seem to make some parts look as if musical chairs was being played.
Limecraigs might be a modernisation of the name - see the map referred to in a moment.
Your description of the rifle ranges sounds spot on, and they are gone from modern maps.
To see the old maps (their origin escapes me for the moment, but can be trawled up, the out-of-copyright aspect of the original is the important bit) now that the general spot has been registered on the page, follow the link for People's Map.
Once it opens, spot the little + layers tab towards the top right and click it to open the options, from there, just select the Out Of Copyright Map and you're there.
I have checked the map you refer to, and the rifle ranges are as I had expected.
I think Lunecraigs is simply an error resulting from someone';s bad handwriting, as Limecraigs House (probably also used as WRNS accommodation), adjacent to Ardnacraig, was built shortly after Campbeltown became a royal burgh in 1700. it was built for the Dowager Duchess of Argyll. This certainly predates the "out-of-copyright" map, which shows the line of the Campbeltown and Machrihanish Light Railway. The whole area tended to be slightly "off-limits" as both Limecraigs House and Ardnacraig were the property of the Duke of Argyll.
The area formerly covered by CGS is clear on the same photograph as has been marked with the present location of the School (at Limecraigs!). It lies immediately to the west and north-west of what is now the Campbeltown hospital - part of this may actually be on land which was within HMS Nimrod - and can be distinguished by the number of cars parked within the former area of the School. The School fronts on to what is now Stewart Road (until the 1950s this road had no name, but was given this name from the adjacent Stewart's Green), while the entrance for vehicles is from Ralston Road. This gate was known as Ropewalk Gate in HMS Nimrod, as there had once been a rope works on the site.
Regarding another entry, on the bombing of Campbeltown in Feb 1941, two men were in fact killed, Archibald Stewart and Frederick Pendle, when several mines intended for the harbour landed on or beside houses adjacent to the Low Askomel shore.
Interesting reading Passerby. I recall HMS Nimrod quite well, but mainly with regard to their buildings in Dalintober; those at the other end of the town where the classrooms were, were a bit removed from where i lived.
I might mention that I was under the impression four people were killed in the air-raid that knocked a large part of a wall of the Royal hotel. One of them, a lorry driver by the name of Blue, had the misfortune to be driving his lorry past the hotel just as the bomb hit the hotel. The mine which hit the shore round near the Trench Point killed a lawyer (I'd guess this was the Archibald Stewart, you mention). I'm pretty sure there are four names of people who were killed in that raid on the War Memorial.
There were two raids on Campbeltown, on 06 Nov 1940 and on 09 Feb 1941. In the first, which seriously damaged the Royal Hotel and the Victoria Hall, the lorry-driver, Alexander Blue was killed, and Thomas Hunter, the Agricultural Adviser, died thwe following day in hospital. Rumour - as unsubstantiated as most Campbeltown rumours - said that the lone aircraft had been piloted by a German pilot who had been brought up in Campbeltown.
The second attack in which Archibald Stewart and Frederick Pendle were killed was a much more sustained and deliberate attack, intended to mine the harbour and Campbeltown Loch. It was said that two mines had exploded in the vicinity of Mr Stewart's House, and the Trench Point house, occupied at the time by the McCorkindale family, was severely damaged and left uninhabitable. Several Clyde steamers, converted to minesweepers, arrived and spent the next few days searching for mines in the Loch. Minor damage was caused to a number of houses on the Askomel (north) side of the Loch.
In one of my earlier postings, Nimrod II should probably appear as Nimrod B. I was confusing it with HMS Landrail II the old airfield at the Strath farm.
I have always been under the impression Passerby, that Campbeltown had only been bombed once. I hadn't even ever heard the rumour of the German pilot having spent some time in the wee toon... sounds quite plausible though. As I've said before, isn't Secret Scotland a great learning forum! The two raids would make sense as I can't imagine a German bomber being able to fly from Norway to Scotland with a bomb-load consisting of both mines and bombs, and back to Norway again. Come to think of it , why couldn't they... they were able to fly to Glasgow and back with bombs and perhaps, bembenminen. I have stayed at the Royal Hotel a few times, but every time it was while on a bicycle tour otherwise I'd have had that German bomb case which sat in their foyer for years!
I did spend some time rummaging around the debris in the house damaged near the Trench Point looking for souvenirs. I'm trying to get my north/south straightened out in my mind. Wouldn't one go through the "Askomel Walk" to get to the Trench Point by the low road? For mental location-finding, the fact that Campeltown is south of Glasgow always confuses me. I never could come to terms with the expression, "I'm going down to Campbeltown for my holidays". Yes, Yes, got it now, the "Askomil" is on the north side of the loch.
I just wondered if anyone had knowledge of the CD...
440-PAGES OF TEXT AND PHOTOGRAPHS THE CHRONOLOGICAL STORY OF THE CLYDE AND THE WORLD AT WAR
I keep meaning to send off for one, £6 for 440 pages seems pretty good value (unlike a lot of other 'professional', over-priced junk), but whenever I get the urge, I fear I'd not get anything done for weeks thereafter, and call the whole idea off
Hadn't heard of this CD. Any idea of who has contributed to it? 3 or 4 years ago The Campbeltown Courier ran a series of articles on Kintyre at war, and it may be connected with this reasonably informative series.
With regard to Dugald's contribution, Askomel Walk is known locally as "the low road" and leads to the Trench Point and, ultimately, to Kilchousland, where the remains of the unused AA battery are probably still to be found. I have no idea where the bombers that came to Campbeltown were based. I suppose it could have been Holland or Denmark by 1940/41. In any case, bombers sometimes flew over the Campbeltown area when Belfast was their target, while attacks on Ardeer were visible from Campbeltown on the other side of Arran.
I have now confirmed:
1) WRNS personnel were located at Limecraigs House as well as at Ardnacraig. 2) The former Campbeltown Grammar School, which was HMS Nimrod, is now Castlehill Primary School and the Community Education Centre (Argyll College).
Enjoyable stuff Passerby! We discussed the Kilchousland gun site here a while ago, and the biggest problem I had was trying to spell the word. Apollo eventually set me straight on the correct spelling... he had me Googling, or something, up and down that damned Campbeltown Loch! The gun site was still there last time I saw it which was probably back in the 80's, but I haven't checked this date out.
I have no idea where I got the notion that the bomber(s) which bombed C/town came from Norway. It makes sense to me however. At that time, 1940/41, I don't think the Luftwaffe had bombers in service which could fly to C/town and back again from France or the Low Countries, with a bomb load. We know of course, that they could fly from Norway to Clydeside and back again. Yes, I think Campbeltown/ Norway is a reasonable assumption. I think Denmark is a reasonable assumption too, but I throw this in with the "Norway" assumption since both countries, pretty well, shared the the same feasible location for bombing the UK There was a Luftwaffe bomber/fighter base at Allburg in northern Denmark.
Many thanks, Apollo, for the information on the CD. Much more on it than in the Campbeltown Courier articles. Spent some time last night looking at what was on it (according to the website). One or two minor errors - the RAF air sea rescue launches were normally moored off Belmont (note spelling), while the extended Dalintober pier was used for loading (presumably practice) torpedoes on to submarines. Also rather "loose" on the names of the churches which owned the various halls mentioned.
But very interesting, particularly on the crashed aircraft (although not always correct in location of the crashes at sea). For example the Firefly crash on 24 Jun 44 was off the soth-east of Kintyre rather than off Southend. I watched the recovery of the pilot's body by RAF launch and rowing boat from a virtually inaccessible beach below Glenehervie about 10 days later.
"One or two minor errors - the RAF air sea rescue launches were normally moored off Belmont (note spelling), while the extended Dalintober pier was used for loading (presumably practice) torpedoes on to submarines. "
I'm not too sure of there being minor errors here with regard to where the RAF sea rescue launches were normally moored. I recall quite clearly swimming from Dalintober Quay out and around two RAF launches, where they were normally moored at a distance of about 60m off the extended quay, with another Campbeltown fellow. (The other fellow was Keith Campbell, and his name is on the War Memorial). I'm not clear on when this was, but it would definitely have been between and including 1940 to 1943.
For that same previously mentioned time period, I don't ever recall seeing any submarine in the vicinity of Dalintober, nor do I recall the launches being moored elsewhere. The submarine, HMS Oberen, normally tied up alongside the main quay in town, not far removed from the Royal Hotel, along with another two smaller subs.(I think they were called "H" followed by some number).
Mind you Passerby, I should mention that I don't know where "Belmont" is/was...maybe it was the name of a house located near the Askomil Walk on the low road, which isn't far, as the crow flies, from the Dalintober quay.
Apologies to those whose interest in Campbeltown does not go to the level of the 1:10000 map!
Belmont is one of the houses on the "low road" (Askomel Walk), but is closer to Craigard than to the Dalintober pier (even when it was extended, as it was during the war years). RAF launches were certainly moored off the house - although this may not always have been the case - and a small boat belonging to the RAF beached at steps/a slipway beside the public road. I do not know where the launches would have come to a pier for refuelling and maintenance, but the Dalintober pier would seem a reasonable choice, oparticularly as most berths at the Old and New quays seem to have been permanently allocated to specific ships. HMS Shemara, for example, the main training ship for Nimrod always spent the night alongside at th4 berth which later was used for loading coal (Shemara later gained some notoriety as the the private yacht of Sir Bernard and Lady Docker).
I can distinctly remember seeing a semi-trailer loaded with torpedoes (presumably for training purposes) parked on Dalintober Quay while a submarine was taking them on board.
On a different subject, it would be worth having an entry on the HMS Untamed (later HMS Thunderbolt) disaster, as the submarine when raised, was brought by the lifting craft close to the shore at Kilkerran to enable the bodies of the crew to be brought ashore. I believe most were buried at Kilmun, close to the wartime submarine base on Holy Loch. Some years ago, when I was browsing in a bookshop (probably Foyles in Charing Cross Road, London), I found a detailed account of the loss of Untamed and the search for it when on trials it failed to surface. Unfortunately, can't remember the name of the book, but perhaps someone else can help.
On 30th May 1943 HMS Untamed was exercising with ships of the 8th Escort Group off Cambeltown. At 0950 that morning Untamed dived and commenced the first run of the day. After three hours the submarine surfaced and prepared for the next run. Just after 1345 the submarine once again dived and the second exercise of the day began. This exercise involved the anti-submarine training yacht Shemara firing practice mortars against the submarine. The first two runs were successful with Untamed indicating her position after each with a white smoke candle. At 1450 following the third run the submarine did not immediately indicate her position, The Shemara fired "INDICATE POSITION" charge, came to a stop and began tapping on the hull. The efforts of the Shemara were greeted by a yellow smoke candle. Shemara moved to a position by the marker and once again began tapping the hull. At this point a swirl of water was seen near the marker. Shemara called a halt to the exercise and signalled the submarine to surface: there was no reply. A second surface signal was sent, again without result. At 1602 Shemara sent a signal for assistance to the Naval Officer in Command and continued to search for the submarine. At 1716 the sound of the submarine blowing her tanks was heard. Using asdic the Shemara located the submarine. For the next ten minutes the sound of the submarine blowing her tanks and stopping and starting her engines could be heard. At 1733 HMS Thrasher arrived to render assistance and tried to contact the Untamed. At 1745 all sound from the submarine ceased. Because of worsening weather conditions divers were not able to inspect the stricken submarine until 1115 on 1st June - 45 hours after she had dived. There was no reply to the divers tapping on the hull of the submarine and an inspection of the vessels hull showed no obvious damage. Only when the Untamed had been salvaged did the cause of her loss become clear; the forward part of the submarine had been flooded through a sluice valve.
"One or two minor errors - the RAF air sea rescue launches were normally moored off Belmont (note spelling), while the extended Dalintober pier was used for loading (presumably practice) torpedoes on to submarines. "
I'm not too sure of there being minor errors here with regard to where the RAF sea rescue launches were normally moored. I recall quite clearly swimming from Dalintober Quay out and around two RAF launches, where they were normally moored at a distance of about 60m off the extended quay, with another Campbeltown fellow. (The other fellow was Keith Campbell, and his name is on the War Memorial). I'm not clear on when this was, but it would definitely have been between and including 1940 to 1943.
For that same previously mentioned time period, I don't ever recall seeing any submarine in the vicinity of Dalintober, nor do I recall the launches being moored elsewhere. The submarine, HMS Oberen, normally tied up alongside the main quay in town, not far removed from the Royal Hotel, along with another two smaller subs.(I think they were called "H" followed by some number).
Mind you Passerby, I should mention that I don't know where "Belmont" is/was...maybe it was the name of a house located near the Askomil Walk on the low road, which isn't far, as the crow flies, from the Dalintober quay.
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